# Ambien can boost sleep spindles but disrupt later memories

Markdown copy of https://realalpha.app/s/ambien-can-boost-sleep-spindles-but-disrupt-later-memories/ on Real Alpha, the best minutes from long interviews with the people building AI. Cite and link the page, not this copy.

- Speaker: [Terry Sejnowski](https://realalpha.app/people/terry-sejnowski/) · Terry Sejnowski is a professor of computational neurobiology at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies.
- Host: [Andrew Huberman](https://realalpha.app/people/andrew-huberman/) · Host, Huberman Lab
- Show: Huberman Lab
- Episode: [How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI | Dr. Terry Sejnowski](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/), Nov 18, 2024
- Moment: 34:52 to 40:14 of the episode (5 min), playing on https://realalpha.app/s/ambien-can-boost-sleep-spindles-but-disrupt-later-memories/; the episode from there: https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2092

## Quote

> “you wake up in the morning you can **remember twice as much** from what you learned.”
> — [Terry Sejnowski](https://realalpha.app/people/terry-sejnowski/) at [37:51](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2271) · Huberman Lab

## Takeaways

1. The cited experiment found twice as many sleep spindles after Ambien.
2. Participants recalled twice as much of what they learned before dosing.
3. Experiences after dosing could be lost.

## About this segment

Terry Sejnowski describes an experiment in which Ambien doubled sleep spindles and recall for material learned before dosing. Experiences after taking it could be wiped out, revealing a trade-off.

From “How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI | Dr. Terry Sejnowski”, Nov 18, 2024. [Watch the full episode](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/)

## Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

[34:56](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2096) As I recall, there are one or two things that one can do in order to ensure that one gets sufficient sleep spindles at night and thereby incorporate this new knowledge. This was from the episode that we did with Gina Poe from UCLA, I believe, and others, including Matt Walker. My recollection is that the number one thing is to make sure you get enough sleep at night so you experience enough of these spindles.

[35:21](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2121) Right, right. And we're all familiar with the cognitive challenges, including memory challenges and learning challenges associated with lack of sleep, insufficient sleep. But the other was that there was some interesting relationship between daytime exercise and nighttime prevalence of sleep spindles. Are you familiar with that literature? Oh, yes. Yeah. No, this is a fascinating literature, and it's all pointing the same direction, which is that, you know, we always neglect to appreciate the importance of sleep.

[35:54](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2154) I mean, obviously, you're refreshed when you wake up, but there's a lot of things happening. It's not that your brain... turns off is that it goes into a completely different state. And memory consolidation is just one of those things that happens when you fall asleep. And of course, there's dreams and so forth. We don't fully appreciate or understand exactly how all the different sleep stages work together. But exercise is a particularly important part of getting the motor system tuned up. And it's thought that the REM, rapid eye movement sleep, may be involved in that.

[36:36](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2196) So that's yet another part of the sleep stages. You go through, you go back and forth between dream sleep and the slow way sleep back and forth back and forth during the night and then at the when you wake up you're in the in the REM stage more and more REM more and more REM but you know that's all observation but you know as a scientist what you want to do is perturb the system and and see if you can maybe if you had more sleep spindles maybe you'd be able to remember things better. So it turns out Sarah Bednick, who was at UC Irvine, did this fantastic experiment.

[37:14](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2234) So it turns out there's a drug called Zolpidum, which goes by the name Ambien. You may have some experience with that. I've never taken it, but I'm aware of what it is. People use it as a sleep aid. That's right. A lot of people take it in order to sleep. Okay. okay uh well it turns out that it causes uh more sleep spindles really yeah it it doubles the number of sleep spindles if you you know if you take the drug uh you take the drug after you've done the learning right you do the learning at night and then you take the drug and you have twice as many spindles you wake up in the morning you can remember twice as much from what you learned. And the memories are stable over time? It's like it's in there.

[38:04](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2284) Yes. No, it consolidates it. I mean, that's the point. What's the downside of Ambien? Okay. Here's the downside. Okay. So people who take the drug, say if you're going to Europe and you take it and then you sleep really soundly, but often you find yourself in the hotel room and you completely have no clue, you have no memory of how you got there. I've had that experience without Ambien or any other drugs where I am very badly jet lagged.

[38:32](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2312) Yes. And I wake up and for a few seconds, but what feels like eternity, I have no idea where I am. It's terrifying. Well, that's another problem that you have with jet lag. Jet lag really screws things up. But this is something where it could be an hour. You took the train or you took a taxi or something, and so here, now this seems crazy. How could it be a way to improve learning and recall on one hand and then forgetfulness on the other hand?

[39:05](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2345) Well, it turns out what's important is that when you take the drug, right, in other words, it helps consolidate experiences you've had in the past before you took the drug, but it'll wipe out experiences you have in the future after you take the drug, right? Sorry, I'm not laughing. It must be a terrifying experience, but I'm laughing because there's some beautiful pharmacology and indeed some wonderfully useful pharmaceuticals out there. Some people may cringe to hear me say that, but there are some very useful drugs out there that save lives and help people deal with symptoms, et cetera. Side effects are always a concern. But this particular drug profile, Ambien, that is, seems to reveal something perhaps even more important than the discussion about spindles or Ambien or even sleep.

[40:00](https://realalpha.app/v/etbfLTHD_VU/?t=2400) which is that you got to pay the piper somehow, as they say. That's right. That you tweak one thing in the brain, something else, something else goes. You don't get anything for free.