# Export rules can leave foreign-made substitutes unrestricted

Markdown copy of https://realalpha.app/s/export-rules-can-leave-foreign-made-substitutes-unrestricted/ on Real Alpha, the best minutes from long interviews with the people building AI. Cite and link the page, not this copy.

- Speaker: [Michael Dell](https://realalpha.app/builders/michael-dell/) · Michael Dell is founder of Dell. · Founded Dell Technologies and committed $6.25 billion to investment accounts for 25 million American children.
- Host: [Brad Gerstner](https://realalpha.app/people/brad-gerstner/) · Founder & CEO, Altimeter Capital · Started Altimeter with under $3M in 2008; an early backer of Snowflake.
- Host: [Bill Gurley](https://realalpha.app/people/bill-gurley/) · General partner, Benchmark · Backed and sat on the boards of Uber, Zillow, OpenTable and Stitch Fix.
- Show: BG2
- Episode: [Michael Dell – Invest America Act Becomes Law, AI Talent Wars, Compute Demand, Market Update | BG2](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/), Jul 10, 2025
- Moment: 1:12:17 to 1:15:21 of the episode (3 min), playing on https://realalpha.app/s/export-rules-can-leave-foreign-made-substitutes-unrestricted/; the episode from there: https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/?t=4337

## Quote

> “So **anybody can buy it**. It's also $399, right?”
> — [Michael Dell](https://realalpha.app/builders/michael-dell/) at [1:14:26](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/?t=4466) · BG2

## Takeaways

1. Dell recalls a Pentagon meeting about limits on computer performance.
2. The PlayStation exceeded those limits but was made by a Japanese company.
3. Rules can have unintended effects without stopping access to technology.

## About this segment

Michael Dell recalls taking a PlayStation to the Pentagon to show how MTOPS rules could miss foreign-made hardware. He says restrictions can create unintended consequences without controlling access.

From “Michael Dell – Invest America Act Becomes Law, AI Talent Wars, Compute Demand, Market Update | BG2”, Jul 10, 2025. [Watch the full episode](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/)

## Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

[1:12:23](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/?t=4343) i'd just like to harp on which is the skilled immigration piece so someone highlighted to me they made like the huge wanted poster of all the people that Meta has borrowed from other companies, like 60 or 70 percent of them were of Chinese origin. And as I understand it right now, you know, there are PhD students or candidates in China that can't get visas and get in to the United States right now. And we go back to what Trump said on All-In, that he wanted to staple a visa to every diploma, I'd really like to get, not that we're in charge, but I'd love to get that conversation going again. It would be very powerful for the country to increase skilled immigration. And it feels like we might be decreasing it.

[1:13:12](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/?t=4392) Yeah, I absolutely agree. And to your point, Brad, I mean, if we don't aggressively work to you know sell our technologies around the world uh other countries are going to do that and you know reminded of a story long time ago the defense department had this thing called mtops and it was a it was a bill might remember this but it was it was like a restriction on how fast the computer was that you know you had to get approval from the government and to sell it and uh i was in this group of technology ceos and we we went we went to the pentagon to talk to the generals and uh and before we went we went to toys r us store and we bought a playstation and we took it out of the box and we brought it to the the pentagon you know this big room And we, you know, set the PlayStation down on there and we said, you know, this exceeds the M-TOP restriction.

[1:14:22](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/?t=4462) Right. But unfortunately, you know, it's not, it's made by a Japanese company. And so, you know, it doesn't fall under the rules. So anybody can buy it. It's also $399, right? So you guys think you're going to control the access to this thing or little things that move easily, you're kind of fooling yourselves. And so we have to come up with more intelligent ways to restrict access to the most advanced technologies.

[1:15:00](https://realalpha.app/v/X52BNWZrXSk/?t=4500) and oftentimes you just get all kinds of unintended consequences with these rules that are created and it doesn't create the outcome that the government was originally looking for. Well, I think that's a good way to wrap.