# Holmes’s changing image doesn’t erase the evidence of deception

Markdown copy of https://realalpha.app/s/holmess-changing-image-doesnt-erase-the-evidence-of/ on Real Alpha, the best minutes from long interviews with the people building AI. Cite and link the page, not this copy.

- Speaker: [John Carreyrou](https://realalpha.app/people/john-carreyrou/) · Investigative Reporter, The Wall Street Journal · Two-time Pulitzer winner who exposed Theranos fraud for The Wall Street Journal and wrote Bad Blood.
- Host: [Max Read](https://realalpha.app/people/max-read/) · Writer, Read Max · Former editor of Gawker and Select All; writes the Read Max newsletter.
- Show: Hard Fork
- Episode: [Why Nathan Fielder's ‘You Can See Everything’ Left Us Reeling | Hard Fork](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/), Oct 16, 2026
- Moment: 17:08 to 24:53 of the episode (8 min), playing on https://realalpha.app/s/holmess-changing-image-doesnt-erase-the-evidence-of/; the episode from there: https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1028

## Quote

> “she **embraced the spotlight**. She jumped into the spotlight. She did everything she could to attract the spotlight.”
> — [John Carreyrou](https://realalpha.app/people/john-carreyrou/) at [21:32](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1292) · Hard Fork

## Takeaways

1. Her presentation may have been tailored to the rooms she entered.
2. Carreyrou says Holmes actively sought public attention.
3. Feeling sympathy for her doesn’t resolve questions of accountability.

## About this segment

The journalists examine how Holmes’s clothes and manner shaped her public image, then challenge her account of being pushed into the spotlight. The film’s emotional pull doesn’t settle whether she is being candid.

From “Why Nathan Fielder's ‘You Can See Everything’ Left Us Reeling | Hard Fork”, Oct 16, 2026. [Watch the full episode](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/)

## Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

[17:20](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1040) Caitlin, what about you? Was this similar to the Holmes that you remember from those interviews, from that interview now more than a decade ago? I mean, I think I think I interpreted them differently, obviously, in 2013 than now in 2026 but one of the things i've thought a lot about in the intervening years is teasing out what what her performances are for who they're for right like when i met her like again there was not a lot of female founders and certainly not raising this level of capital and focused on biotech and so i thought to myself that the way she was dressed the sort of black on black which didn't seem super weird to me but seemed very like um purposeful was uh was also about just being in rooms with men when you're trying to raise money there's lots of research that shows that women do not get investment in the same way that men do and so in my mind you know i thought

[18:15](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1095) of that as partially trying to pass as a strong um you know founder which like at the time the other thing that was going on was just like every single person saying like your investments are just in the in the founder right it's this sort of like auteur theory of technology that you know you're investing in someone but i couldn't i did get a vibe that something wasn't totally you know she was performing something um and and and also she's just weird yeah you know so when i watched the movie i felt like the same i felt some of the same suite of feelings yeah i mean she to caitlin's point about her costume she very conspicuously dresses and makes herself up in almost an exact opposite way to to her at her most famous in the 2015 2016 there are no turtlenecks in this movie there are very few dark colors her hair is down most of the time uh and you know as

[19:07](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1147) you're saying caitlin it's hard not to wonder if this is itself a sort of strategy i mean in some ways it probably obviously is a sort of strategy to come across in a in a more relaxed and intimate and different way yeah especially in those scenes you know it's like we're we're they were in a temporary housing situation there but they're at the beach you know it's like it's like we're frolicking on the beach like literally we're frolicking on the beach we're just taking care of our dear child.

[19:31](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1171) I mean, her child Child is present, right? But that's also like a kind of telegraphing ease and intimacy, right? Like you're inside someone's real self. And how to interpret that is kind of like, I think the filmmakers, Oppenheim and Fielder, made choices carefully about what's in their edit, as anyone would. and and we're thinking about the question of like what she was performing that scene where she doesn't understand fielder's question about like and over and over again she repeats the same answer it's like that was one of the most intense like scenes for me because it's just completely baffling yeah and it there was a parallel that reminded me of actually at the trial there were moments i don't know if you remember this john when like she was being interrogated by the prosecutors and they're asking the same question over and over and over and like just slightly

[20:28](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1228) different ways and trying to like get her to and and it just very much reminded me of that where it's like there's a little bit of a communication breakdown here yeah yeah because i think the the reason communication breaks down quite simply is she's not answering the question she's evading the question she's alighting and yeah um i mean i i felt like there were some some moments in the film where she was just brazenly lying um one scene that that comes to mind is um when they're at this photography studio that uh billy her companion has taken her to to um film uh her from a bunch of different angles to to basically create a digital replica of her that he's going to be able to show their children when she's in prison and uh before she goes on to have her picture taken, suddenly she breaks down in tears, and you hear her say through the tears that last

[21:26](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1286) time people in her entourage pushed her into the spotlight, it didn't go well. And I almost jumped out of my chair, because to me, that was like a brazen lie. And the reason is that the first time around, she embraced the spotlight. She jumped into the spotlight. She did everything she could to attract the spotlight. And there are even texts that show that she was enjoying the spotlight and that she premeditated the coverage text that came out during her criminal trial. So I felt like those tears and that moment at the photography studio were completely manufactured um and well it's also possible though that she but isn't it possible that even regardless of if she was into it or not when she was doing it at the time that the result is that she's like kind of traumatized by how it all turned out but and also i mean i i mean john like i hear you that does seem like

[22:33](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1353) a brazen lie to me and yet one of the interesting things of the film is as a mother like i'm watching it and i'm actually every time i remember that she's about to go to prison and she's just given just has these young children i i felt like sad and empathy for her you know because like this is such a weird period of time to be with someone no matter who they are right like the last days before they go to prison for how many years 12 11 and three months 11 years and three Yeah, although she's now going to be moving to a halfway house apparently next year or so.

[23:04](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1384) And John, I don't think that negates your point. It's like my sadness about her situation, just a human sadness about her situation doesn't change this question of her calculations about what she's saying and lying. I think that's kind of what makes the movie work so well. I was very nervous that it was like, oh, well, this is just going to be kind of a redemption story or getting us all kind of on her side emotionally.

[23:28](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1408) and it does take us into her emotional state and like... Makes you feel bad for her at times. She's going to prison. Like you said, she's going to be away from her, her family, but it doesn't also let her off the hook, which is what I was kind of most worried about. Right. There's a scene where I think she and Fielder are outside in the dunes above the beach. And he asks her whether she's ever lied in her life, whether she's ever told a lie ever.

[23:57](https://realalpha.app/v/zcZ4fSZJFzM/?t=1437) And her answer is no. Never. And he goes, Liz, really? Yeah. Yeah. And that's all of us. It's preposterous. But but I felt like they gave her enough rope to hang herself there. You know, you could take the the point of view that letting her say that on camera with a straight face is giving her the opportunity to manipulate the public and to rehabilitate herself. But I think the way it comes off is not that. It comes off as this absurd statement that can't possibly be true. And if anything, you know, she she looks worse for it.