# NASA’s bureaucracy pushes ownership away from the people doing the work

Markdown copy of https://realalpha.app/s/nasas-bureaucracy-pushes-ownership-away-from-the-people/ on Real Alpha, the best minutes from long interviews with the people building AI. Cite and link the page, not this copy.

- Speaker: [Jared Isaacman](https://realalpha.app/people/jared-isaacman/) · Jared Isaacman is founder of Shift4, pilot and commercial astronaut. · Commanded Inspiration4, the first all-civilian orbital flight, and founded Shift4 payments; now runs NASA.
- Host: [David Friedberg](https://realalpha.app/people/david-friedberg/) · CEO, Ohalo · Founded The Climate Corporation, sold to Monsanto for about $1.1B in 2013.
- Show: All-In
- Episode: [Jared Isaacman: What went wrong at NASA | The All-In Interview](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/), Jun 4, 2025
- Moment: 23:04 to 29:50 of the episode (7 min), playing on https://realalpha.app/s/nasas-bureaucracy-pushes-ownership-away-from-the-people/; the episode from there: https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1384

## Quote

> “You empower the smart people to make good decisions. You know, you give them the tools to make those good decisions. You **hold them accountable** when you get them wrong.”
> — [Jared Isaacman](https://realalpha.app/people/jared-isaacman/) at [24:28](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1468) · All-In

## Takeaways

1. Push decision-making and accountability to the lowest levels.
2. Cut layers of deputies, committees and oversized review meetings.
3. Focus resources on exploration goals instead of scattered local programs.

## About this segment

Jared Isaacman says NASA’s management layers, committees and local programs dilute accountability and slow its mission. He argues for empowering doers and directing resources toward major exploration goals.

From “Jared Isaacman: What went wrong at NASA | The All-In Interview”, Jun 4, 2025. [Watch the full episode](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/)

## Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

[23:17](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1397) nasa is a storied institution inspirational to many you and me the same i still wear a nasa hat with pride often. But, you know, the agency from an outsider's perspective feels like it's become a laggard. It feels like it's kind of lost a little bit of its luster. Why is that? Do I have that wrong? And if I don't, what has happened to the administration of the agency over the decades that's led to this moment? Well, like you, I love NASA and I was so excited to contribute. I was honored that the president nominated me. I mean, you've got the best and brightest that show up to work every day and want to win in the high ground of space. And I would have been thrilled to work alongside him. You're totally right. Everything about it, even just looking at the insignia, how damn inspiring it is. But NASA's got problems. But look, that's not unique to them. It's going

[24:10](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1450) to be government-wide. Whatever I tell you that I think is wrong with NASA, I would guarantee it's systemic across every government agency and department. The bureaucracy is super real. No one's can be surprised about that. You know, you have dozens of layers of leadership. Everybody's got a deputy. I mean, you know, things that, you know, I know, like, you know, we know in business that certainly Elon knows and instills in his companies across commercial space, like ownership, like you push ownership down to the lowest levels. You empower the smart people to make good decisions.

[24:43](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1483) You know, you give them the tools to make those good decisions. You hold them accountable when you get them wrong. That does not exist inside NASA or the government. There is so many layers of management. Everybody's got a deputy. It's crazy. I would have deleted all that. Not that people don't need to go, but the amount of deputies, assistants, associate assistant to the deputy, the amount of committees, the meetings with 200 people on them, the review boards, all that needs to go. You need so many more doers. And there's a lot of them there. They're really smart, but you got to push down ownership to the absolute lowest level. So you got this crushing bureaucracy that impedes progress. And then, and here's where Congress plays a role.

[25:23](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1523) Every state's got some equity that they care about and they protect like hell and it impedes the big progress. You know, like I tell you, I love talking to all the senators and the Senate was so fair to me. And I know I would have had a lot of great votes, but you talk to some senators and they're like, you know, we have a local rocket club that supports these schools and NASA contributes it to every year. And I want to make sure that continues. It's like, well, why can't you do a car wash for the rocket club? Like, this isn't huge dollars. Why can't the community raise those funds? And then you might say, well, what's wrong with a couple rocket clubs, you know, to inspire the kids all across the country? Well, one turns to 10, turns to thousands, and it becomes a distraction. Those are parts to delete. Those are resources that are draining away from what

[26:04](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1564) every senator should care about, which is how do we get to the moon, get to Mars, and shock the world with, you know, with world-changing headlines. That's what people are waiting for from NASA, you know? 100%. I mean, man, what you're saying resonates with me so much. It's not just NASA. It's across the federal government. I've spent enough time now interacting with folks and meeting with folks and hearing similar stories. It's just the chaos that builds with scale, with age, with bureaucracy, with competing interests that all have to be met. And you end up diluting everything away. It's so frustrating to hear that. I think this does play into why China is really just moving at lightning speed right now. They have this immense second mover advantage that is crushing across all technology. You know, when you had the Manhattan

[26:56](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1616) Project, we had the technical know-how, the will, and the resources to get something done, and we set up facilities where we needed them. You know, Oak Ridge and Lawrence Livermore, and And, you know, like, you know, you get, you put the facilities where you need them and the talent where you need them to execute on the mission and everything builds up logically to it and you, and you deliver a win.

[27:18](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1638) And we did the same thing with the space program, you know, in the, in the, in the 1960s. Well, now all of those national labs and all, and really, honestly, a lot of the facilities within NASA are doing lots of little things for existence. And some of them are relevant to the mission and some are not. And when you try and do something, you know, glorious now, you have to try and repurpose those resources that are super entrenched and they don't want to necessarily move.

[27:43](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1663) And then, of course, you have Congress that's protecting their programs. China is literally doing what we are doing, what we did, you know, in the in the 40s and 60s and saying, we're going to, hey, we're going to go after fusion or we're going to work on next generation, fifth gen nuclear reactors. We're going to build six gen fighter jets. And they put the facility. where they belong with the right people and resources. There's no baggage. And they have this incredible second mover advantage. And they're able to get things done at lightning speeds because they don't have all that drag. And we have a lot of drag. And again, it's not just NASA, it's government-wide. And do you think there's a way to fix it without Congress or is the only way to fix it without Congress? Meaning there needs to be no Congress if we have a shot

[28:26](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1706) fixing this and there needs to be a different governing model. You know, look, I think this is why I absolutely support the president. You know, despite all, I mean, my single largest political donation ever was to President Trump in this, you know, to support his inauguration. It's why I got charged up with, you know, with Elon assembling the Doge team. It's like, we do have to shrink the government. We do have to get rid of all these inefficiencies, the waste and the distractions from the mission, things that we don't need every taxpayer contributing to and actually concentrate those dollars, real dollars on the things that the taxpayers should be fighting for.

[29:04](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1744) And when you do that, you know what, like 20 billion or 25 billion is actually a lot of money. And, you know, and I know like it's a super tough budget environment right now and people hate change, but I'm always surprised when like a million is not a million anymore and a billion is not a billion because you do an awful, awful lot with that. So if there was ever a time to get this done, it's now with President Trump when he has the House and the Senate behind him.

[29:28](https://realalpha.app/v/6YdOjoaQTOQ/?t=1768) And I'm not surprised that there is frustration from people that were really passionate and are still passionate when this much time goes by and we're not able to get those things done that we thought we'd be able to.