# The AI Revolution: Winners, Losers, & The Future of Tech | The Real Eisman Playbook Episode 27

Markdown copy of https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/ on Real Alpha, the best minutes from long interviews with the people building AI. Cite and link the page, not this copy.

Dan Ives argues the AI build-out is a new industrial revolution, with infrastructure spending paving the way for enterprise and consumer adoption.

- Show: The Real Eisman Playbook
- Hosts: [Steve Eisman](https://realalpha.app/people/steve-eisman/)
- Guest: [Dan Ives](https://realalpha.app/people/dan-ives/) is a tech analyst at Wedbush Securities.
- Published: Sep 29, 2025
- Length: 55 min

## The best minutes

- [22:55](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1375) [Big tech can fund AI spending before adoption scales](https://realalpha.app/s/big-tech-can-fund-ai-spending-before-adoption-scales/) (5 min)
- [39:12](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2352) [Palantir turns customer data into operational decisions](https://realalpha.app/s/palantir-turns-customer-data-into-operational-decisions/) (5 min)
- [44:47](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2687) [Data center power needs make nuclear a key AI bet](https://realalpha.app/s/data-center-power-needs-make-nuclear-a-key-ai-bet/) (5 min)

## Also worth watching

- [7:48](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=468) [AI is making IT services and software growth harder](https://realalpha.app/s/ai-is-making-it-services-and-software-growth-harder/) (4 min)
- [19:20](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1160) [Standalone AI models may need a larger platform to compete](https://realalpha.app/s/standalone-ai-models-may-need-a-larger-platform-to-compete/) (4 min)

Skip the four-minute Eightco/Worldcoin discussion and both sponsor breaks.

## Full analysis: Dan Ives says $350 billion in big tech spending supports AI

- Ives ties big tech's $350 billion in yearly capital spending to the AI buildout.
- Steve Eisman restates the cash cushion as $1 trillion, but neither figure proves customer returns.
- Budget against production use, not spending alone, and watch sales friction and power approvals.

Its 6 sections, what it means for you and what to watch are on [the page](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/#analysis), free with an account:

- [25:49](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1549) Cash cushions the buildout, but does not prove returns
- [26:15](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1575) Adoption remains the buildout's biggest unproven link
- [11:00](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=660) Incumbent software faces a sales problem before churn
- [42:39](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2559) Palantir gives Ives a concrete enterprise use case
- [46:05](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2765) Power could move the bottleneck beyond chips
- [44:15](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2655) His stock map depends on forecasts beyond today's results

## Summary

Dan Ives is a tech analyst at Wedbush Securities and says he has covered technology throughout his career. He became chairman of Eightco, which he describes as a treasury vehicle for World tokens.

Ives calls the AI build-out a fourth industrial revolution, with enterprise adoption and infrastructure spending leading the way before AI reaches more consumers. He argues that today’s investment differs from the dot-com bubble because big tech has substantial cash and AI already has practical use cases. He sees pressure on IT services and software companies, and says Apple needs a stronger AI offering, potentially through Google’s Gemini. He also makes the case for Tesla’s autonomous-vehicle ambitions, Palantir’s commercial AI business and nuclear power for data centers.

### Minute by minute

- [1:46](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=106) **World ties identity to tokens.** Ives says Eightco’s World investment is an AI authentication play, not just a token strategy. He says iris scans are processed by the Orb and then deleted, while users receive a World token in the app. He cites 15 million sign-ups and says advertisers and social platforms could pay for authentication as the network grows.
- [6:07](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=367) **AI reshapes tech winners and losers.** Ives calls AI a fourth industrial revolution, with enterprise adoption driving spending now and consumer use growing later. He sees pressure on IT services and consultants, and says software companies such as Adobe and Salesforce face harder incremental sales as buyers prioritize AI. He argues their installed bases remain valuable, while Oracle built up its AI stack earlier.
- [12:09](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=729) **Apple needs an AI offering.** Ives says Apple’s 1.5 billion iPhones give it a major role in consumer AI, but he thinks the company needs proprietary models to keep users and outperform. He says Apple has lost talent and is unlikely to build the answer internally, pointing instead to a deeper Google Gemini partnership or an acquisition. He also criticizes Apple’s bureaucracy and lack of product innovation.
- [19:20](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1160) **ChatGPT and Perplexity lead.** Ives calls ChatGPT and Perplexity the leading AI products, while saying Gemini could rise to third place and eventually second. He argues Perplexity will need a partner because a company built around a model alone cannot sustain itself in the next stage, where data matters. He says Apple and Google both have reasons to deepen their relationship.
- [23:07](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1387) **AI spending differs from dot-com.** Ives cites $350 billion in big-tech capital spending this year, compared with an earlier expectation of $280 billion, and says big tech holds more than $1 trillion on its balance sheets. He contrasts this with dot-com companies that had loss-making, venture-funded business models. He says only 3% of U.S. enterprises are on the AI path so far and argues that real use cases show adoption is still early.
- [27:12](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1632) **Regulation slows European AI.** Ives blames European regulation and privacy concerns for slowing AI adoption and says startups are leaving for the United States, Asia and the Middle East. He says a startup may have to prepare an 800-page document for approval. He contrasts Europe’s caution with AI investment in Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
- [39:12](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2352) **Ives sees Palantir expanding commercially.** Ives says Palantir analyzes large amounts of data for government agencies and commercial customers, citing an insurance example where it could identify mispriced policies and customer segments. He says its AIP product is gaining commercial use through customer referrals, without a direct sales force. He sees the company as a potential trillion-dollar business, while Eisman notes its high valuation.
- [44:47](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2687) **Ives sees Oklo powering data centers.** Ives says data centers will need six to eight times more energy than they use today and argues nuclear power will be essential. He describes Oklo as a small-reactor company that can reuse nuclear material. His thesis is that reactors will be built alongside data centers, though approvals and construction remain milestones.
- [49:01](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2941) **Ives favors two China AI names.** Ives says his AI 30 includes just two Chinese companies: Alibaba and Baidu, which he considers AI winners. He argues investors should have some China tech exposure, while acknowledging the risks. He says his travel and network in China help inform his view.

## Transcript

The Real Eisman Playbook, hosted by Steve Eisman, with Dan Ives.

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there. Where the podcast’s audio and the video part ways, some times are a minute or so off.

[0:00](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=0) Talk to me about what's going on in the world right now. Some like myself that's covered tech my whole career. We are in an unprecedented build-out of essentially the next layer of the way humans are going to interact and enterprise is going to interact. I think everybody would agree this is a revolutionary period, but in revolutions there are winners and there are losers. Let's talk about Apple. Elephant in the room is AI. It all is waiting on when they finally double down on Gemini partnership and actually give us something that's going to be the catalyst for Apple going forward. When Trump does these meetings with big tech CEOs, he said, what's the biggest constraint?

[0:37](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=37) It's power. You think tremendous number of data centers going to be this little nuclear reactor powering the data center. That's our thesis. Let's talk about Palantir for a second. What does Palantir do? Palantir's work with every three-letter agency in the U.S. They can mine their data in a way that basically no other company in the world can mine data. But where they're going on the commercial side, oh my God. Because now they're taking that technology. That is going to be the magical solution in terms of AI. Hi, it's Steve Eisman, and this is another episode of The Real Eisman Playbook. And today, I have Dan Ives of Wedbush Securities, the tech analyst.

[1:28](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=88) Welcome, Dan. So excited to be here. So I just want to point out one thing. We are both bullish on the market. You know, when I go on CNBC these days, they call me Happy Steve. But I think the difference between our backgrounds can be expressed in our fashion. So I come from the financial services background. I'm wearing a sports jacket, a little podcasty, but yet stayed. And you're a tech analyst in the wild, wild west, hence the outfit that you're wearing. But at least the sunglasses, I took them off. Thank you for taking off the sunglasses. So let's start with what happened this week. So I'll tell people who don't know, there's a company called 8co.

[2:07](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=127) Stock price was $1.45 on Friday at the close. And Monday morning, they announced that Dan Ives, my guest, is now the chairman of the company. The company raised $250 million in a private placement, I think, at $1.45. And then 8co was going to go out and buy a cryptocurrency called WorldCoin. So the stock proceeded to go straight to $80. that went to $40 and has corrected over the last couple of days, but it's still considerably higher than the $1.45. By the way, congratulations. Thank you. Thanks. But explain to me, because one thing I read about is that OpenAI has created, Sam Altman has created this device that gets to authenticate you by looking at your eyeball.

[2:54](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=174) And then somehow a cryptocurrency shows up. Explain how that works. Yeah. And look, and I take a step back, like I wouldn't have done this venture if it was just a token strategy, like a typical, you know, you see many of those cookie cutters coming out. I mean, to me, I view like everything Sam's built with world, I view it as an AI infrastructure play because in the future, especially in a robotic world, bots everywhere, you're basically going to have to identify as a human and that's going to become more and more important. But you need true authentication. And I believe what they've built with World in terms of iris scanning technology, they're miles ahead of what anyone else has built.

[3:36](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=216) You know, 15 million have already signed up for it, and it's going to about 100 million over the next year. But in terms of – to put it all together with the token, you know, obviously ACO buying World in terms of our treasury vehicle. Okay, so I bring the orb in, you sign up, Steve gets, so all of a sudden you put your eyeball in, you know, it basically scans it. That data is in the orb for basically a second, and then that data leaves the orb, goes to your world app. The data in there disappears forever. Now it's actually in your app. You get a token, a world token, as part of that. Just for putting your eyeball in.

[4:21](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=261) It's very similar. It's like the PayPal model in the early days, right? $20 to start a PayPal account. I see. So now all of a sudden you have a token. Now, if you look today, 15 million have gone down that route. That token strategy, the way that the token trades, okay, world, it's all based on this. Now, in the future, look, the goal is that we took about 100 million. I mean, we believe it's ultimately going to be billions because- But how does the token have any value if you're getting it for free? So at first it's free, but now the token is, you know, if you look like in Japan, the second biggest advertiser in Japan, uses world as a way to scan relative to making sure that they're humans, not bots. You see it actually use cases on social media. I believe in the future you're going to have social media that are ultimately going to pay a fee to actually have authentication from a world user. Our view is advertisers are going to pay for this.

[5:21](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=321) So it's a good example of you build the network, the use cases then form. And then the token has value. And then the token has value. So I don't view it necessarily as, quote, unquote, a store of value today. My view is it starts off, it's an AI tech authentication play. Okay. Then as now you're up to $15 million. But AECO is just going to own the token. Exactly. The authentication is done by his company. That's by Tools for Humanity. So that's separate. Got it. But it's all based on the token strategy. It is our view that this is something that's going to, as it expands and you start to see a network, it has value in terms of not just the token, but with the network effect and ultimately the monetization in the network.

[6:06](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=366) And that's why just like, you know, Sauer's done on Bitcoin, Tom Lee's obviously done it on ETH, you know, through Bitminer. Bitminer is an investor in our venture because of the relationship with Ethereum. Okay, let's take a step back. Sure. We're at a cocktail party. Yeah. I've never met you. You tell me what you do. I know some of what's going on. I read the newspapers. I read some research reports, but I don't know anywhere near what you know. Talk to me about what's going on in the world right now in a couple of paragraphs. Like, give me your sort of gestalt. I would tell you, as someone like myself that's covered tech my whole career, it is truly a real fourth industrial revolution that's happening we're living in it and and it's my view that um when it comes to the ai revolution it's transforming enterprises today that's where the spending is right but in the future it's consumers so i when you say what's happening today i view it as like this is it's not just the tech ball market because it's my view we're in a tech bull market for the next two or three years at least but we are an unprecedented capex build out of essentially the next layer of the way humans are going to interact and enterprise

[7:24](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=444) is going to interact so i i would equate it to like vegas being built in the 50s it's set you built dubai being built where there's no building that's essentially what we're doing when it comes the AI infrastructure. Okay. So let's say at a high level, I think everybody would agree this is a revolutionary period, but in revolutions, there are winners and there are losers. The winners right now are very, very obvious. These are the people who are building up the infrastructure. Obviously, it's NVIDIA. Who are Weave? Is anybody involved in kind of the hardware-y space? But they're going to be losers.

[8:02](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=482) Totally. Who do you think, if you had to like draw up a list of, I'm not saying definitively that's a loser. Sure. But who's potentially a loser?

[8:11](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=491) **Dan Ives:** I think the biggest potential losers are IT services companies.

[8:16](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=496) You mean like a Gartner? Just any IT or even consultant. Because the reality is that when you think about AI, like, if you think about, like, you know, the McKinsey's and the Booz's and the, you know, and obviously Accenture's and others, that is definitely a headwind. Now, I think so, like, Julie, what she's doing at Accenture, 20% of Accenture consultants are now AI. So, like, they're pivoting quick. So, I think IT services, the Cognizance and others definitely have a lot of pressure. Look, I think the biggest one is, like, software right now is under attack. You see with Adobe, you see with Salesforce, you see on the other side, Oracle be like, hey, hold my beer.

[8:55](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=535) Don't throw us in that category. And they pivoted, you know, really years ago with Saffron. But if you go back, you know, two years ago, everyone's like, Oracle, they're a loser in AI. It was really how they built up the stack. They built actually the product technology around that and the monetization. Salesforce, and I do believe that they ultimately will be able to get out of this as a winner, they right now, like they underestimated how quickly this is going to happen. So I think overall, when you think about winners and losers, and you go into different categories, I think you have tech, transformational tech or next-gen tech is going to be more of a winner.

[9:34](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=574) There's going to be private companies today with 10 employees and a bunch of engineers. I don't mean dot-com bubble moment where it's like here's – because we have a spin-up, a PowerPoint, that's what we're doing. Because of the technology, you build the use cases. It's like that's the difference. Like you don't need series Z capital. You can now – if you build up the right – Let me press that for a second. So the argument that I heard from – I think it was Ben Reitz of Milius well over a year ago was this. He said that the cost of creating software is going to collapse here and that you've got some of these iconic software companies like a Salesforce, Adobe, et cetera, that people have loved for a generation.

[10:23](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=623) They've got the SaaS model. They've got tremendous modes built around them. And these guys are going to be under attack because, yeah, they have a great product, but somebody is going to show up with a much cheaper product. And as I like to say, their modes are not so modey. Do you accept that or don't accept that? It's like, I think, and Ben's a good friend, and those are great points. I think it's a yes and no, because the one thing that you have to factor in is like, these install bases are massive moots to begin with. You can't just be like, okay, I'm going away from Salesforce, Adobe, whatever it may be.

[10:58](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=658) So the moots are there. Now, do I believe the incremental sale is incrementally much more difficult? Yeah. Yeah, because the reality is that when I talk to CIOs around the world, it comes down to like, hey, if you got an AI solution, come in the office, let's talk. If it's non-AI, go to the back of the line. I see. That's the biggest problem right now because it comes down to like- So it's not that people are necessarily abandoning Salesforce and Adobe. They're not in a rush necessarily to buy new from them. Because the edicts from the boards, from the investors, is like, I want to make sure that in this arms race, we're not on the outside looking in.

[11:40](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=700) Look, that's why, why is Apple underperformed? Because the reality is, is one of the biggest pours out for the last 15 years that they, it's about Michael J. Fox back to future movement, right? You know, it's like they continue to be focused on like iPhone this, we tweaked it. What's your AI strategy? Is it Gemini? Are you going to buy Perplexity? You can be on the outside looking into the biggest industrial revolution that we've seen in the last 50 years. That's the issue. That's why it's like cool kids table. Then there's the table like back toward the kitchen and stuff. And that's the issue right now in terms of tech.

[12:18](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=738) Let's talk about Apple. What are your thoughts here? I mean the criticism is there's no AI strategy. But on the other hand, any AI product that comes out that the consumer is going to use, it seems to me, has to work out some deal with Apple. It's paying to play with Apple. You've got to pay a toll on the highway, and that's Apple, right? So the reality is the reason we're bullish on it and continue to be is the install-based unparalleled, you have 1.5 billion iPhones, the monetization opportunity. At the end of the day, the consumer AI revolution, one way or another, goes through Cupertino. But it comes down to, like, Apple stock, I believe we get to $270, $280 without AI.

[12:51](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=771) Where is it now? $235. Okay. But the issue is that for this thing to actually outperform, because it's been a huge underperformer, you need them not just to collect the tolls on the highway in terms of the services or on the app store. You need them to have true models built into their phones that are proprietary to make sure Steve, Jane, Jim doesn't leave. And I think that's where they've been – they've significantly underestimated it. They've lost a lot of talent internally. There's a better chance of me playing Ryder Cup Bethpage September than anything happening internally at Apple. It has to be external.

[13:20](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=800) And look, clock short – So then they have to buy something extra. They either have to buy a perplexity or – And that's why Google, I think fundamentally, they were waiting to see what happened in the DOJ situation to see if that got cleared up. Clearly, that was a huge win for Google. And now Sundar and Cook could do another candlelight dinner to get to figure this out and actually get this deal done. Interesting. Okay. What do you think the conversations are like internally at Apple now about what's going on? Look, there's a part of Apple that's run like a motor vehicle in New Jersey. Meaning?

[13:47](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=827) Meaning in a bad way, like the bureaucracy, the red tape, it's run like a municipality. And that's part of the problem, right? Is it really? I had no idea. That's been a huge part of the problem at Apple is that innovation has really lacked, right? Like in other words, like for a company where there was the car, where there was autonomous, different. The reality is, is that the product innovation has been lackluster. You have the biggest install base in the world, but every time you go to an actual Apple event the last few years, you're trying to drink a Red Bull not to fall asleep. How was the phone?

[14:15](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=855) They had the new phone meeting. How was it? It was at? I honestly needed two cappuccinos to watch it. Two. Doubles each? Doubles each. Just to actually watch it, right, from Joe and the Juice. It was that boring. It's just good because the reality is it's going to be fun. Like on a scale of 110, the product cycle is probably an 8.5. OK, it's street underestimating numbers that that's enough where I think just given the install base and what we're seeing in China to be a catalyst. But it's elephant in the room. Elephant in the room is A.I. You like, you know, it's like for someone like myself that goes to, you know, around the world with tech, you can't just say, OK, we're everyone else is playing this game.

[14:49](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=889) we're not playing that game. So now it all is waiting on when they finally double down on Gemini partnership and actually give us something that's going to be the catalyst for Apple going forward. So let's go back to something that you said that why is innovation, like what happened to Apple that the innovation has lacked? Because we were talking before the show about Patrick McGee's book, Apple in China. And Dude. The way he describes how Apple moved all its manufacturing to China and incredible manufacturing and innovation, logistical genius. One thing he said, which was interesting, he said that what Apple did in China is they're not making, let's say, a million Fords.

[15:29](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=929) They're making a million custom-made Ferraris in China. That's how incredibly innovative they've been. And yet that manufacturing innovation has lacked in product innovation. Why? Product, but also it's like they're very focused on like privacy. Like in other words, they're not like a tech-centric company in terms of like willing. Like if you look, it's like Meta, willing to make big bets, lose on it. Like I'd say like Metaverse, but then obviously hit massive home runs like AI, like what Meta's done. I think everything's slow there to come. even on content, like the content strategy. How long has this been like this, you think?

[16:01](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=961) It's been like this, I'd say probably for the last three to four years, but the impact you haven't really seen just till the last one, two years, because look, biggest strategic mistake they ever made was not acquiring Netflix. I'm saying just go back to the history. They underestimated content. They underestimated the AI buildout. They've never done acquisitions, right it's like we could do it better but they're anti-acquisition but the reality is it's almost like it's like a kid in uh high school or whatever kid that plays baseball you're a legend at seven you ate you 11 in your town 12 eventually when you start playing club and you go to perfect game in atlanta at 15 you that's where clock strikes midnight when you see the other kids from california and hawaii whatever the point is like that's what happens to apple And it was like, they hit a point where it's like, innovate, they hit a ceiling.

[16:46](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1006) Others were so much better. And guess where developers went? They didn't, they left Apple. If you're a 22 year old coming out of engineering school in the United States, you're going to OpenAI. You're going to Palantir. Right. You go, you're going to perplex today. Apple, it's like, you don't want 12 meetings to decide what type of, you know, food you want. So it's a bureaucratic nightmare in a way. And look, and I'd say to some extent. Hi, Steve Eisman here. The most successful businesses in the world share one secret. They know exactly where every dollar goes, what to cut and where to double down.

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[18:55](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1135) And Microsoft, that was the bet of the century that they made in OpenAI. That could have easily been Google. But the problem there is that the bureaucracy was there, engineers were leaving. And that's where the whole thing, Google missed that first part of AI because it was really run. And I think they recognize it was run like a municipality, right? The red tape. Next thing you know, it's like you feel like there's going to be a Kodak sort of camera somewhere or some Xerox machine. And I think that was the fear. They quickly changed that philosophy, did layoffs, brought other people in, and now Google's winning again.

[19:25](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1165) But they went through that phase in 23, 24, where finally, and that's where Sundar and everyone came in. And they're like, look, we got to rip the Band-Aid off and change this whole thing. So let's talk about for a second. There are a lot of different OpenAI companies. There's ChatGPT, there's Perplexity, there's Gemini. Is there an obvious better one at this point? I think ChatGPT is playing a different game just because OpenAI. I mean, first of all, they're years ahead. The scale is at a total different level. and then ultimately it's a very similar to NVIDIA then eventually you start to build chips you build out the ecosystem like they have massive capital so it's a capital game too when you look at perplexity perplexity is an unbelievable model which is google's so so when you look at google's i remember google basically you know they have their own sort of proprietary model but the main one is perplexity chat gpt i view as kind of the the top two top two when you look at perplexity the issue perplexity is like you can't be a standalone just as the model because the value fundamentally is really in the data like i'd argue like palantir it's data they don't have a model It's all data-driven.

[20:44](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1244) **Dan Ives:** That's why perplexity's issue is going to be eventually they're going to have to find someone to get married with because you cannot sustain in this next stage just being a model-driven company.

[20:59](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1259) So the top ones now you think are ChatGPT and perplexity. I think it's ChatGPT and perplexity and everyone else is almost playing a commoditized sort of game. When you look at Gemini in terms of Google, that's the one where they're going to significantly build that up. And I think Gemini ultimately is going to turn into that number three and eventually number two. And that's why when it comes to Apple, when they bet on it, they'll bet on Google for Gemini in terms of that AI piece. But that's why Google needs Apple because you need the biggest install base in the world in terms of that. So that relationship you think will just deepen.

[21:36](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1296) But they couldn't do it with DOJ because when DOJ was there, that's why it's like, okay, stay out. They couldn't even testify. Just for our viewers, so the Department of Justice sued Google. Google pays Apple $20 billion a year to its default. And what you're saying is while the case was going on, that relationship had to be kind of a little bit arm's lengthy. Arm's length. And now that it was interesting, you know, I read part of the judge. His opinion, it was pretty clear that if we were talking a year and a half ago and you're reading what the judge was saying and you owned Google, you're like pulling, you're pulling your hair out because you go, this guy's coming down hard.

[22:17](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1337) He's going to make them sell Chrome. He's going to make them do this. He's going to put them in handcuffs. And then basically while he's writing his decision, the world changed. And he says, OK, I really can't do anything here. AI changed again. Saved Google from getting broken up. Right. Right. That's the, like, that's the crazy, like, when you actually start to put it together, that's essentially what's happened. While he's writing his opinion. While he's writing the opinion. Right. And that's why it came down to, like, DOJ had a very good case. Without question. So, and the amount of effort spent on that case is unbelievable, but it came down to AI, it changed the whole game for them.

[22:56](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1376) Right. But, but it also just speaks to now, it's like, you cannot wait. Because a lot of times I can invest from an investor perspective. Like CapEx is not sustainable. $350 billion big tech CapEx this year. The expectations are that was going to be $280. It's $350. Next year it's going to moderate. Then the bubble is going to burst. I was actually coming to this. Let's talk about that. So you can search engine anything these days in a much more sophisticated way. So you take the top guys. You add up all the CapEx. It's like $300 to $350 billion. But by the way, one thing I say about what's happening right now is, I said this on my weekly wrap a few weeks ago.

[23:41](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1421) It was the week when NVIDIA reported. I said, forget about what NVIDIA does. Forget about the chips. Just look at the numbers for one second and tell yourself this. This is a $4 trillion market cap company. It's the biggest market cap company on planet Earth. and it just grew revenue 55% year over year. This is not a 1 billion market cap company that grew revenue 55%. This is the biggest company they were. Think about what would have to happen for that to happen. And that tells you everything. And think about what Oracle just did. Right, and what Oracle just did. Oracle's numbers. It must have been, your mouth must have just like, what?

[24:24](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1464) Look, it was like, and even though Oracle is one of our top five names, And then the level of that beat was jaw dropping. And then I'd also say it was the same thing. By the way, they actually didn't. When I first saw the numbers, I thought to myself, typical Oracle, screw up once every like three to four quarters. And then after you read the first line, it was like, oh, my God. But then it was a similar thing with Microsoft on their quarter and Meta in their quarter. See, that's why my whole point is I'm not saying you're not going to go. So just going back to the whole bubble. look as someone that covered tech stocks in the late 90s so i saw like i lived it like covering tech through the bubble burst and everyone's like can't happen again is this a dot com the difference then versus now is like and again people be sure like a cisco chart in 99 to an invidia chart today if you go back late 90s like the business models were flawed they were basically vc run they were upside down business models.

[25:25](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1525) What do you mean they were upside business models? Upside down. They were losing money. It was all VC funded. It was a deck saying, we're going to do this. Exactly. Now, big tech spend $350 billion a year, and big tech has won over a trillion dollars in the balance sheet. So first, you're being supported by companies that have more cash than some countries. Two... But wait, just say that again. It's an important statement. But it's an important statement because big tech, $350 billion a year that they're spending, And they have a trillion dollars in the balance sheet when you combine the cash they have.

[25:57](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1557) So it speaks to my view, like you are being supported by the biggest companies in the world, by the biggest company, which essentially you could say are almost. more important than even many countries relative to how much cash they have.

[26:10](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1570) **Dan Ives:** And then you actually start to think about it and be like, okay, you only have 3% of the enterprises in the US that are actually going down the AI path today because it's so early.

[26:22](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1582) Europe, zero. Asia, non-China, zero. Middle East, just starting with the build out in Saudi and UAE. the point is like it just shows where we are in the cycle and then it just to compare with with the bubble the use cases are real i mean in terms of what you see across on the enterprise health care insurance for pharmaceutical the technology speaks to like when jensen the godfather of ai came out with this chip combined with the software and the hyperscalers you've essentially built a machine that's just going to continue to amplify and now it's coming to consumers because guess what autonomous i think 20 of vehicles over the next five seven years not going to have a driver to come to that robotics yeah i think one of every 10 to 15 households is going to have a robot but not a traditional robot a humanoid robot that actually is essentially you know very similar to you know what i'd say is almost like a human brain You mentioned something I just wanted to press, like Europe is nowhere.

[27:25](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1645) Like when you go over there and talk to people, like why is Europe nowhere? And it's a huge frustration because like I speak at a lot of these events there and like every startups, they're leaving in droves. They're leaving Europe to come to the United States. Either U.S., Asia, Middle East. And why are they leaving? Because of the privacy issues. You can't essentially do anything there. If you actually have a startup, you got to write like an 800-page document to actually get approved from some municipality, which gets approved by government. The problem is that when the privacy and the scared level of AI in Europe, you're going to have small African countries that you've never heard of ahead of Europe.

[28:10](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1690) Because that's the scary thing that's happening there. And that's why, like, from an innovation perspective, the world's going ahead. Just like Middle East, think about it. Look what's happened, Saudi, UAE, across the board, and Europe is basically being like, okay, we're focused on the VCR. I think the way they're going, you can maybe have some blockbuster videos stores that might start to be built in Europe. I mean, I know there's only one in Alaska. I understand what you're saying. What do you mean blockbuster videos? They're going back to the 1990s. Europe is. Yeah. I mean, Europe is like a back to the future moment.

[28:47](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1727) That's how over-regulated they are. It's the regulation, the red tape, worry about privacy. That's why if you're a startup, you're leaving Europe. That's why you see, I mean, investors right now, what European tech stock, where are things being listed? London Stock Exchange? There's companies that they would have could hit a three wood to the London Stock Exchange. Where are they listed? New York Stock Exchange or NASDAQ? So the problem is it's just the reality of what's happening in this world. Let's switch gears and let's talk about Tesla and Waymo. So I had Itai McKaylee on my show, and he's bullish on Tesla.

[29:21](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1761) But as I listened to him, he basically said that Waymo has a much more belts and suspenders, autonomous driving with the sensors and everything. And so Waymo can start to be in big cities. But that Tesla has chosen a route of just cameras and that he doesn't think that they, at least at this point, have the. ability to do autonomous driving in big cities. And so I didn't ask him on the show, but when I thought about it, I thought that's kind of like a real weakness because the money is going to be in big cities. So let's talk about Tesla to begin with. I find it amazing that peak earnings of Tesla were 2022 and where the earnings are going to be this year is like 60% lower than they were in 2022. It's a testimony to the belief in Elon Musk that the stock is actually flat over that period, but it certainly doesn't look great. Give us your thoughts on Tesla.

[30:23](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1823) Where are they in autonomous driving? What has to happen to this company to make it better? They're losing market share to China. Let's talk Tesla for a while. And I think for us, most people know us for Apple in the early days and really Tesla in the early, right in terms of identifying that because it's my belief that tesla is the most along with NVIDIA disruptive technology company in the world like in the future because look the reality is like when you look at the future for them is about autonomous and robotics so when it comes to like losing share deliveries numbers coming down and it's a huge frustration of the bears right in terms of Tesla is that the whole future for Tesla, the whole growth, it's all about physical AI, autonomous and optimist on the robotic side. When it comes to autonomous, see, my view is way more $200,000, $230,000 cars. They're essentially in five cities in the United States.

[31:16](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1876) That's how much the cars cost because of the incredible technology that they have all over of the car so how much does that car cost two to 230 000 wow so now look will that come down over time yeah they're not scaling like you know i'm saying the real waymos are cool it's cool to tell your friend dude i was in scottsdale i was in a waymo is really that's great like take a facebook picture but the reality is like who's gonna own autonomous it's gonna be tesla's world everyone else paying rent. Relative to the scale producing these cars at $30,000, they're going to have millions of autonomous vehicles.

[31:48](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1908) But how do they get over the fact that it doesn't seem nearly as good? Or they don't use LiDAR. I mean, it's cheaper, but it's cheaper for a reason. But I believe Tesla, it's a whole different data model because you have 10 million Teslas out there. Their model is non-LiDAR. So it's camera driven. As someone like myself that spent a lot of time in Austin, in the robo-taxis, and obviously that's going to continue to get deployed around the United States, I believe they're going to be able to do it non-LIDAR. And I was like, I believe they're going to be doing- And how do you do it non-LIDAR? Camera set.

[32:18](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1938) If you look at how Tesla's done it, look, go back years ago. You can't build an EV like that. You can't actually build a car that's actually going to- You can't build a supercharger network. Musk and Tesla, their whole existence has always been, you can't, that can't, same thing. Because I believe it's going to be a data-centric model, the way that they ultimately build this out. What do you mean a data-centric model? Because it's all based on the AI from the data, from the technology that's been built into the algorithm. It's not just camera technology. You think it's camera plus AI software?

[32:52](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=1972) It's from AI software. And that's why ultimately what's going to happen is like, they're going to actually, own a big piece of xai which i think will happen in november what's xai xai is musk's ai technology company okay okay so i just view the future that tesla is going to continue to innovate more and more in autonomous the interventions which basically is a fancy term for I appreciate it. a human has to get involved in terms of, you know, getting on the wheel or taking control are going to, I think, get to the point that you're going to have more and more regulatory approval for what I view as true level four and, you know, ultimately no wheel, essentially, technology. Level four means no driver. No driver. Right.

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[34:41](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2081) and Ramp corporate cards block any out-of-policy spend before it even happens. That's why some of the most valuable businesses in the world like SpaceX, Shopify, Visa, and Stripe cut their expenses by 5% with Ramp. A business owner I really respect uses Ramp, and they say they love it. Invest in your growth. Get on Ramp. New customers get $250 off at ramp.com slash eisman. go to ramp.com slash eisman ramp.com slash eisman so look is that coming today no is it coming tomorrow but i believe like in the next few years that is within reach well so what has to what has to happen in terms of technology for tesla to get to that point because until then this is not going to be rolled out all over the place you need to have in terms of full self-driving yes you have to get to a point that the technology is so good that it hits a regulatory threshold that then from a federal perspective and ultimately the state, they say- That's good.

[35:39](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2139) That's good. How far away do you think we are from that? I believe we're two years away. Two years away. I think we're two years away from starting to get some sort of federal approval on what I view as true FSD for Tesla. Full self-driving. Full self-driving. Now, like, look, the scale obviously has to get there, okay? You got to get robo-taxis to ultimately 35, 40 cities around the United States. You know, that's something that's going to need to happen. Waymo, look, because it's our view, like, we're much more neutral. We were bullish on Uber. We're much more neutral and negative on Uber because it's my view over the years that Tesla will ultimately dominate that opportunity.

[36:15](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2175) the economics on ride sharing are going to come down significantly that's gonna be major pricing pressure for uber lyft because the way it's ultimately going to work is if i have an uber and i live in new jersey and i'm here right now in new york city when i put my uber into the network my uber right now my tesla could be driving around new jersey picking people up making money because 94% of the time, you don't use your car. And then I make sure it's back in my driveway by 6 p.m. It's made 500 hours driving people around. So people have a little side business. Of course. It's no different. That's what you think is what Tesla's going to do.

[36:51](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2211) It's like me and you buying a medallion. So is that an Uber business or is that a Tesla business? That's a Tesla business. That's a Tesla business. So that's what, and look, that'd be like me and you buying a medallion for a taxi service. Right. So it's the same concept. And that's where my view is termed like physical AI. And that's why when you look at everything Jensen talks about, physical AI, autonomous. What is physical AI? Physical AI means physical devices, physical action machines that use AI. That's robotics, humanoids, autonomous. I understand. So if we're two years away, let's say you're right.

[37:19](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2239) Let's say two years from now, it's clear that Tesla is level four. In our world, two years of freaking eternity. So what happens to Tesla between now? Forget about robo-taxing. Let's talk about the fundamentals now. What happens to Tesla over the next couple of years? Because the tax credits are going away to buy EVs. Are the earnings going to go down to the 50%? I don't think they're going down to the 50%. I mean, I think you have some stabilization from margins. Some of the demand destruction started to stabilize in Europe. You have new models that come out, I think, probably over the next year.

[37:48](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2268) But the reality is, like, look, it's the most – if I've covered whatever, 100 public companies. Like the most emotional bull bear debate out there will always be Tesla. The bears would be like, oh my God, they missed earnings again, 20%. The bulls would be like, robo taxis are now in 15 cities. By the way, having run hedge funds, I have to say, if I was an analyst and I had pitched Tesla as a short, okay, and I had said to my boss, I am super confident that the earnings are going straight down. And that four years from now, the earnings per share will be 60% lower than it was in 2022. Let's short the stock.

[38:29](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2309) And it all happened exactly as I said, and the stock is flat. I'm going insane. Well, that's why. But that's why I could tell you, like, as someone that lives in, like, the institutional world, but also on the retail world in terms of private client, well, speak so much to retail. you know webbush and others what i think this market what's been so frustrating for many is like from the palantirs to the NVIDIA's to the tesla's to many other names where a lot of times investors have been if they've done their work on the negative side they've actually been right in terms of sometimes their thesis in terms of numbers but what they've missed is what's coming what's coming. And I think that it's been a very, look, you've obviously lived it for decades. I think that's been the most difficult thing for stock picking. If you're very valuation centric, it's been a very, very, look, it's been a very brutal years for many of those investors if you can't. Let's talk about Palantir for a second. Talk to me like I'm a moron. What does Palantir do look and palantir and i'd say if i think about like in my history tesla being like the most controversial palantir being like number two okay like i'm saying one like because like we're bullish

[39:42](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2382) on like 10 12 bucks it is the most institutionally hated we're getting palantir yeah we're getting emails left and right be like this isn't about i can't believe you i mean like the craziest type emails ever from institutional clients institutional like saying like how basically how could you recommend this stock. Like this guy should be like fired that he's bullish on Ives like has no idea about this but my whole view on Palantir was a very Very simple, and it was like, okay, Karp is a musk on the enterprise. In other words, Alex Karp is a genius that understands data, and he understands where the world's heading.

[40:23](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2423) What he did in government, because the whole— So just, what does this company do? Palantir's work with every three-letter agency in the U.S. Yes. Any Western government, from there, Europe, Israel. So basically, like, if you think about any sort of, like, MI6 type of movie, the software behind that in one stage or another has been Palantir, government. So explain to me what that software does. And they essentially, they basically are able to take mounds of data and analyze it in a way that the scale and the speed is unmatched. So have they ever given, like, a specific use case of what that meant?

[41:05](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2465) Now, they can't talk about some of the stuff on the defense side, but from an enterprise side, think about it like, you know, they're able to go to an insurance company, go through their data, and in the course of three days being like, okay, what you're charging customers is off by 20%. Your actuary rates are off by, you know, 20, 30%. You should actually be focused on this demographic and these people based on your data. And the marketing department is like, how do you know that? Know that based on the data. Okay. So they can mine your data much better than you can mine your own data.

[41:48](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2508) **Dan Ives:** They can mine their data in a way that basically no other company in the world can mine data.

[41:51](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2511) Now, who have you heard that from? Probably over 100 CIOs. You call a guy up, he runs a company, tell me the conversation. But just to be clear, the whole reason we were bullish on Palantir is that we would go to these like customer events, okay? These like stocks like 12, 15, and basically it was clear to me where, okay, government is where, that was their base foundation, just like Oracle, right? Right. But where they're going on the commercial side, oh, my God, because now they're taking that technology, and it was called AIP from an AI perspective, and as they're building that out in the enterprise, that is going to be the magical solution in terms of AI.

[42:39](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2559) And we would talk to customers left and right and be like, we've been trying to do this for two years. We've had every consulting firm in. We've paid five. We're trying to do this. And here's what's crazy. Palantir doesn't have direct salespeople. Really? So it's all word of mouth. It's all word of mouth. And it all basically, it's, it's basically companies that go to boot camps that they run or, you know, come to them. So once I started to realize what they were doing with companies, I realized like, look, they can miss a quarter. It could take time for this thing to work. But in my mind, this is.

[43:15](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2595) Is there anybody else out there that's close to them? No one. Like no, no one's even. In the universe. In the universe. Now, there's companies like MongoDB, Snowflake, you know, from a software perspective, you know, Oracle, they partner with Palantir. Microsoft, they were going up against Palantir, partner. You know, there's a lot of companies, like, they go up and finally they're like. They're too good. They're too good. Now, then it goes back to evaluation, so expensive. Look, my view on Palantir is basically, like, they are the future. So when I think about the trillions of dollars that's going to be spent, I view Palantir as like they are going to be, and they're a household, I believe they're a trillion dollar market because it might be the commercial business.

[44:01](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2641) What's the market cap now? I mean, 300 billion or something. Okay, so you think this could be still a huge stock. And even though it's so big, how do you justify, it's 80 times. times earning, it's eight times revenues. My view, like everyone knows this for like the last 25 years or whatever, I've never been a valuation sensitive tech analyst because my view is like, I look out three, five years, if I believe and I do all my work and look, you know, over 3 million air miles later, the point is like traveling the world. Like that's the other thing. Like there's many, they're the smartest guy in the world wearing the Peter Millar on Metro North and they go to san francisco twice a year so the point is like for me that travels like asia four times a year all around the world go i i feel like a huge advantage for me is like been seeing it boots in the ground so that is actually been a huge way is that a lot of the bears when they're in hibernation mood they can't see ai in their spreadsheets let's talk to a small company that that you're recommending oclo yep explain to people what oclo does it sounds good to be true But it's an Altman, an Altman name.

[45:08](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2708) Okay, just tell me, it's a nuclear reactor company. Like, what does this company do? First, so just take a step back. And we have our Ives AI-30, which are the 30 names. Right, it's one of these names. But the real, Aqua's zero revenues today. You're like, oh, is this a bubble? How could you justify it? Because it's my view that there's more data centers under construction today than active data centers. Say that one more time. So there's more data centers. being constructed than actually exist how many data centers actually exist today and it depends on how you define data centers but basically like in terms like core ones today like the data center build out today I mean we believe you're eventually going to have like tens, hundreds of thousands of data centers as you're going to have many data centers as it all gets built out around the world but to me nuclear that's So the constraint, as we all know, is energy.

[46:05](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2765) **Dan Ives:** You need six to eight times more energy than you have today to fuel these data centers. It's not going to be the grid.

[46:12](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2772) Grid you'll have, obviously, you know, changes, utilities, the magic bullet. It's going to be nuclear. And it's like nuclear, to me, is going to be the huge piece here. And when you look at Oclo from a nuclear technology perspective, and obviously they've really been anointed by the U.S. government, and they are— So they build small nuclear reactors, and I was reading that they are able to reuse nuclear material. Yeah, and that's a very significant piece of what they do. Yes, because we don't have to bury the stuff. Exactly. So to me, they are like the number one nuclear energy play when you think about...

[46:59](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2819) Now, where are they in terms of approval? There's an old joke about my criminal law professor was Alan Dershowitz. And they once asked him a question, they said, do you believe in plea bargaining. And he says, do I believe in it? I've actually seen it done. It's a funny line. And so have you seen these reactors and do they work? No, so I've seen them. I've talked to regulators in DC and around the country. The point is like they are on the cusp of the buildouts of their data. When you think about the buildouts of the nuclear reactors because remember this is all this is all coming right um i believe like in the next three five years like they they're going to basically be like ubiquitous in terms of their build out across the u.s basically what you're saying you think this product is potentially so great that tremendous number of data centers right next to the data center is going to be this little nuclear reactor powering the data center.

[48:07](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2887) That's basically your case. That's our thesis, like how I think it's going to play out. So what is sort of the next data point that you want to see? It's going to be the build-up. Because obviously it hasn't happened yet. Yeah, sure. I give you a look like last week there was like an approval they got. It's trying to find the little incrementals where it's like, okay, these things happen. Like, is the timeline going to accelerate? Because guess what? U.S. government, they want to accelerate this. Because? Because they know that the biggest constraint— Oh, by the way, from which parts of the U.S. government does this thing need to be approved by?

[48:44](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=2924) I mean, there's energy. I mean, obviously, there's a national security piece. I mean, there's a bunch of different components of it. But here's the problem. In China, you don't need the regulatory—you have one person that signs a deal, right, in Beijing. So the point is, like, U.S. knows that when all the meetings, when Trump does these meetings with big tech CEOs, if you said what's the biggest constraint, it's power. Right. Let's talk a little bit about some of the other stocks while I got you. You have a couple of China companies in your 30. You got BABA. And Baidu. You got Baidu. like how do you like know what's going on in China you're one of us living here in the United States you go to China you make a tour around like see I would be uncomfortable me personally I would just be uncomfortable having anything in China in my portfolio because I just figure I can wake up tomorrow morning the Chinese government does something I don't know what the hell's going on if you're not part of the party in terms of the communist party Look, first of all, I go to China a few times a year.

[50:02](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=3002) So the point is we have a pretty good network that I think we built there. So my view is like, okay, there's a reason I don't have 10 Chinese companies in R30 and we only have two. By the way, so I'm going to say Dan has a product. It's an ETF. It's the Dan 30. Yeah, it's the ETF. And Dan Ives 30. It's basically AI related. And the second, third, fourth derivatives. Right. But see, Steve, to me, it's like, to the opposite, what you're saying is like, I feel like you have to have some exposure to the China tech market. Because when we think about the AI revolution, it's not just going to be all US centric.

[50:45](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=3045) So to me, when I look at BABA and Baidu, those two specifically, they're the AI winners to me in China. Is there risk? Of course there's risk. but i believe they will be key to ultimately that that builder that we see in china but there is risk but also that's why like that's why like we're in asia we'll be in asia next month like that's why it's a huge piece i think it's been like a big different share for us to be honest i think it's very easy when you live in a more of a cocoon like environment you get caught up in sentiment and stuff like that but then all of a sudden like when you're in China when you're in Taiwan when you're in Vietnam when you see it a lot of times like that's probably been like some of our biggest like aha moments like there have been times like I've there were times in like 22 23 I'd be like traveling and like stocks are selling off especially I'll be sitting there in like Taiwan everyone's like dude this is that things are selling off this is like a bubble yet i'm going around to the different fabs being like oh my god demand's like 15 to 1 right so that's where it's like let's talk about mongo db for a second yeah what does mongo db do why do you like it because my thing about like palantir mongo db is right here i mean they are basically

[52:09](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=3129) a data-centric model that's Let's go. Not as good as Palantir. Not as good as Palantir, but here's the difference. Like, they're a consumption model. So what that essentially means is, like, the more you ingest, the more that they make. Mongo's issue has been they've been waiting. So when you think about the AI bill, it's, like, chips, hyperscalers. If there's, like, an Eisenman-Ives, it's, like, building it out, building it out. The use cases, the consumption happens later because you have to build it. But Mongo has been weighted. If you look at Mongo, it was actually like the stock was like underperforming a lot.

[52:46](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=3166) Now, as everything's been built out, like this last quarter, bam. Snowflake, bam. Because now the mind- Now people need the data mining. They need the data mining. I see. So that's why- And they can't all use Palantir. You can't all use Palantir. And then when you look at it, that's why our whole view is like of the second, third, fourth derivative. You have to view this as like, okay, it's like you have to almost like follow the kind of breadcrumbs and you can't just stop here you gotta be okay then who gets it here like g vernova is a name that we're bullish on me too no i've owned it for a while but g like nebesis is another like you know that we're bullish on so it's it's trying to figure out the breadcrumbs talk about breadcrumbs one stock that i was the most surprised about that's in year 30 is spotify like why i mean i mean i use spotify but what's that got to do with the whole ai story i mean Because to me, it's really around, like, the AI piece in terms of how – look, Apple's in there.

[53:47](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=3227) Like, Apple's not – because in my view, like, how they're ultimately going to monetize AI from a consumer perspective. They're going to be a use case when it comes to AI, Spotify. How? Well, because I think AI is going to be used in terms of, like, preferences, in terms of buying habits, in terms of data that will ultimately be used from an advertising perspective. So I view it very similar as how like AI, like Amazon's going to be using AI in a lot of similar capacities. It's a view of where AI is going, not where it is today. But that's also in a consumer perspective. It's like you can look at meta, but then like look at like where Apple, look at how, you know, like Alibaba would be a good example in terms of how that's going to be mined.

[54:35](https://realalpha.app/v/PT6payqqvuk/?t=3275) Dan, that was great. No, thank you. This is a great conversation, and thanks just for having me. I'm a huge fan of you. I really appreciate your time. I'm a huge fan of you. It's great to be here. Thank you. This podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute investment advice. The hosts and guests may hold positions in stocks discussed. Opinions expressed on their own and not recommendations. Please do your own due diligence and consult a licensed financial advisor before making any investment decisions.