# Palantir CEO Speaks Out on the Dangers of AI Markdown copy of https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/ on Real Alpha, the best minutes from long interviews with the people building AI. Cite and link the page, not this copy. Alex Karp argues Europe needs stronger political leadership and technical competence to use AI and defend democratic societies. - Show: MD MEETS - Hosts: [Mathias Döpfner](https://realalpha.app/people/mathias-dopfner/) - Guest: [Alex Karp](https://realalpha.app/builders/alex-karp/) is CEO of Palantir. - Published: Jul 13, 2026 - Length: 1 h 4 m ## The best minutes - [35:33](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2133) [Europe needs political leadership and top tech talent to adopt AI](https://realalpha.app/s/europe-needs-political-leadership-and-top-tech-talent-to/) (6 min) - [41:57](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2517) [AI could raise living standards while widening wealth gaps](https://realalpha.app/s/ai-could-raise-living-standards-while-widening-wealth-gaps/) (6 min) - [51:19](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3079) [China’s AI edge depends on hardware and faster procurement](https://realalpha.app/s/chinas-ai-edge-depends-on-hardware-and-faster-procurement/) (7 min) ## Also worth watching - [5:16](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=316) [Karp says Palantir has stopped hundreds of terror attacks](https://realalpha.app/s/karp-says-palantir-has-stopped-hundreds-of-terror-attacks/) (3 min) - [8:56](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=536) [Palantir argues its software can protect data from AI misuse](https://realalpha.app/s/palantir-argues-its-software-can-protect-data-from-ai-misuse/) (4 min) - [29:55](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1795) [Europe should choose the AI layers it can build competitively](https://realalpha.app/s/europe-should-choose-the-ai-layers-it-can-build/) (6 min) Skip the opening biography, the rights and Peter Thiel discussion, and the closing debate on political labels and open society. ## Full analysis: Karp says two and a half countries embrace AI - Karp says two and a half countries embrace these technologies, while China and Israel seem to be working. - His case links AI adoption to talent, procurement, and industrial competitiveness, but leaves key outcomes unverified. - European buyers should test privacy controls and measure productivity before scaling sensitive systems. Its 6 sections, what it means for you and what to watch are on [the page](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/#analysis), free with an account: - [36:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2161) Europe needs political leadership before AI scales - [34:34](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2074) Europe must choose which AI layers it can build - [38:47](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2327) Palantir's battlefield case remains unverified here - [40:52](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2452) AI adoption needs business evidence beyond defense - [44:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2641) Karp expects broad gains but warns wealth may concentrate - [54:25](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3265) Karp says procurement could decide the AI race ## Summary Karp is Palantir's CEO; he says its software is used by police and intelligence services in Europe and in Ukraine. Döpfner recalls that Karp studied at Goethe University in Frankfurt under Jürgen Habermas and that they met in 2003. Alex Karp argues Europe’s main weakness is political leadership and technological competence, not a lack of talent, and says AI is essential to defense and economic competitiveness. He defends Palantir against surveillance accusations, arguing that its software can protect data and that Europe risks losing technological sovereignty if it lacks its own expertise. Karp says AfD support reflects frustration with migration policy, weak leadership and economic stagnation, while saying he would not support the party because of its sympathies toward Russia and China. He warns that AI could concentrate wealth and deepen public distrust, but argues that democracies can compete if they recruit talent, use effective technology and protect rights. ### Minute by minute - [0:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=0) **AI is central to Europe's defense.** Karp opens by arguing that Russia would have won without AI systems and that Europe would not exist as it does without these technologies. Döpfner asks why Karp’s public image has changed from that of an intellectual on the left to a figure associated with far-right politics and war. Karp says media portrayals differ from the support he hears from Palantir’s users and argues that the company’s effectiveness in counterterrorism and its role in Ukraine help explain the criticism. - [9:08](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=548) **Europe's surveillance debate misses data sovereignty.** Karp says Palantir’s software is designed to protect data from misuse by large language model providers, and argues that its products are among the only ones available at scale to prevent what critics call surveillance. He says Europe’s greater risk is losing its technical know-how to foreign companies that may not protect privacy or allow data to be deleted. He also contrasts American and European approaches to individual and economic rights. - [13:35](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=815) **Karp urges Germany to learn from outsiders.** Karp describes himself as a progressive who wants better treatment for poor people and says rights should apply even to people one dislikes. He contrasts what he calls German Lutheran skepticism toward wealth with a Calvinist tendency to associate financial success with moral success. He argues Germany should ask what it can learn from people such as Palantir cofounder Peter Thiel rather than exclude them. - [22:18](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1338) **Karp links AfD support to weak leadership.** Karp says the AfD’s rise was predictable after large-scale migration without public buy-in or an honest debate about its consequences. He attributes its support to weak leadership in the political center and says he understands the frustration behind protest votes. He says he would not vote for the AfD and agrees with Döpfner’s objections to its pro-Russia and pro-China positions. - [29:16](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1756) **Europe needs a tech-building emergency plan.** Döpfner connects public frustration to migration and energy policy, economic decline and a weaker startup and risk culture. Karp says European leaders first need to acknowledge a crisis, recruit experienced technology builders and create an economic zone where competition can work as it does in the US, China or Israel. He says Europe needs talent more than money and must develop expertise across the technology stack. - [38:33](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2313) **AI could help rebuild Europe's industries.** Karp argues that AI has already helped Ukraine and that technologies used to prevent attacks have helped shape Europe’s security. He says Germany needs AI to modernize industries such as cars and chemicals and compete with China, especially given its limited workforce. He points to the US, China and Israel as places where he believes adoption is supporting growth. - [41:57](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2517) **AI could widen wealth gaps.** Karp rejects the idea that AI has no downsides, saying it is a valuable resource with negative externalities and requires processing and application layers. He argues that many people may benefit while those involved in AI become far wealthier, worsening social divisions. He says job-loss fears are politically potent, particularly when technology leaders tell people their lives will get worse. - [48:46](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2926) **Public candor could rebuild trust.** Karp says telling people not to believe what they see invites protest votes, and argues that tech leaders should speak honestly about AI’s effects. He says political institutions have low legitimacy and that people often assume leaders are lying. He attributes Palantir’s popularity to its willingness to speak bluntly about the West, national service, adversaries and technology’s limits. - [51:19](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3079) **The AI race turns on political choices.** Asked about the US-China race, Karp argues that democratic standards can expose technical problems that others miss, and cites Palantir’s work in Ukraine, Israel and the US. He says China may have an advantage in centralized procurement and engineering leadership, while the West benefits from battlefield experience and can attract people who value democratic and economic rights. Karp warns that Western political opposition to effective technologies could weaken those advantages. - [58:07](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3487) **Open societies must defend equal rights.** Karp says the future of open societies is uncertain and argues that they must fight to preserve rule of law, free speech, privacy and checks on government, including for people others dislike. He calls for broad participation in economic gains while allowing people to benefit from their work. He says Palantir works toward those aims by supporting sovereignty, civil liberties, businesses and Western allies. ## Transcript MD MEETS, hosted by Mathias Döpfner, with Alex Karp. Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there. [0:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1) Without AI systems, Russia would have won. Europe is already completely existing because of these technologies. Europe, as we know it now with all its problems, would not exist without these technologies being used actively. Good morning, Alex. We are sitting here in the mid of the mountains of Idaho, near Sun Valley, in your beautiful house. I remember very well when we met for the first time. It was in 2003. It was at a party in southern France. And somebody introduced you to me, preparing me by saying Alex Karp is a super interesting guy. He studied at the Goethe University in Frankfurt. Jürgen Habermas was his professor. He's an intellectual. Unfortunately, he has no job, penniless, but an interesting guy. [1:04](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=64) We met, we got along very well, and I have the feeling this is a guy who is rather on the left side of the political spectrum, very intellectual personality, cares a lot about the state of democracy, about individual rights. and today this guy has launched one of the most successful companies of recent business in history palantir market cap currently north of 300 billion and certainly people are describing you like a kind of daft better uh a sinister figure of far right-wing ideologies and almost like a war builder. Please tell me what happened. Did you change? Well, first of all, the Palantir thing is, Palantir has a hundred more ex-fans than people who describe me. In fact, my personal experience, including in Germany, including and especially in Germany, is the media version, and I'll get to that, is something like, you know, bringing war to peace times or something. [2:17](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=137) But the actual rational human being on the street is a Palantir fan. Part of our success, there's the product side, which we could talk about. There's also, put this away, every single person in Silicon Valley who finances things would cut off their right arm to have the fans we have. And your left arm. So, but there's many, many things in your question. And I remember meeting you two and thinking, oh, this is a really interesting person. And, you know, well, how does somebody who studies music end up running what, I mean, for those who are not in the German-speaking world, it's funny, outside the German-speaking world, people do not understand the impact of Axel Springer. [3:05](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=185) And which, Axel Springer Verlag, which you, you know, it's easy to say you run, but it's different. And, you know, in Germany, there really aren't that many. I can't think of any other eigentum or someone who owns a significant stake in the company that's also running it. So it's a very, very unusual setup. It's more similar to America, but then we don't have essentially a second-generation business run by an owner. So even in America, the whole setup is very, very unusual. and then you know yeah i mean what i think uh bound us together from the beginning is you're um you're a it doesn't translate well to english but a music scientist so we don't really have science and music and i guess in america but it sounds kind of fake even though i'm sure there is a faculty that but in any case um Um, uh that's a very unusual setup on your end yeah we are both outsiders that's absolutely true and uh we both um are polarizing that's also fair to say i just tried to get it why a person that i met almost a quarter century ago and whom i've met during that time very regularly and i did not observe any change in your worldview or in your personality now the description of you the outside picture of you is in sharp contrast well i get the origin that i'm [4:33](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=273) gonna let me let me ask answer the question it's the exact right framing but i still want to push back on the it there's almost no one else in tech maybe one or two that were who has anything like the fans i have so it's there's this both the outside kind of i would say especially in your much less so here version of me pallinger peter which is exactly what you described but i i just want to also highlight the dynamic that these people also create fans like whenever i do something i'm basically only talk to germany through you now and i get hate but i would say a hundred times more fans writing hey could you please thank you for helping germany especially young people who are want to do things in germany as an example so in any case but let me get to let me answer your question directly uh without the caveat um but i do think there's a european and American difference here. But our products, PG, changed the course of history by reducing, basically. I mean, there have been minor terror attacks, and terror attacks can always happen. [5:41](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=341) **Alex Karp:** But since we launched the product, it has stopped hundreds and hundreds of terror attacks. [5:48](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=348) But Alex, should you then simply describe the mission of Palantir? What do you think Palantir is doing to society? What is the mission in order to help people to decide whether they should feed financial editors? Well, again, but let me just answer the, I'm trying to get to the question asking, which is a really deep question. Why would people want to portray us so inaccurately? It's my version of the question. And I think there's a functional reason for that. And the functions are really twofold. And here I'm going to use Europe as an example. One, the products worked too well so people can afford it. [6:23](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=383) The terror attacks in Europe have basically been reduced to something that's not something people are afraid of, even though there are way too many attacks on the streets, especially of Germany. But people view that as an immigration problem, not as a terror problem, right or wrong. And two, our products play a significant role in Ukraine. So Russia and Russia doesn't appear to be winning. So I think the setup, to answer the Palantir attack thing, especially in Europe, you also have to say, why does Europe believe they can afford to attack Palantir? And I'm telling you, the primary reason is because, and this is a Palantir problem, our products were powerful enough that people believe they can afford it, which is, again, okay, so then what – and so like – so that's, I think, the backdrop. [7:11](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=431) then why would you want to perceive us that way? And I do think there's a Europe and an American difference. And it basically comes down to America is hypercharging AI and tech and has these phenomenal, and that's where I do think the reason why you're kind of a bridge between America and Europe, there are lots of reasons. But one of them is you look like more like an American business person, like you own the company. Like that's a banality, but it's also true. And if you are saying, like, essentially, just take a neutral example, American businesses versus European businesses. American businesses believe they're at war all the time. [7:48](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=468) So if you show up with a product that is demonstrably better on all scores in America and in Europe, you're going to have a very different reception. In America, it's going to. It's not going to be, I like or do not like the person, although most American businesses love Palantir. But it's going to be, how does it work? Why does it work? Does it transform my business? Does the technology work? Is the technology stealing my IP? And in Europe, you can't really afford to ask these questions or they're not being asked correctly because the answer to the question would be some significant part of that infrastructure is going to have to be imported from America. I mean, you have described me many times that your main goal, your mission is to protect democracy. And that's what you are doing, I think, quite efficiently. Nevertheless, the debate in Europe is mainly these guys are collaborating with the American Secret Service. [8:49](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=529) That's bad. That's dangerous. What do we get wrong? I mean, to work with the Secret Service of democracy in order to protect democracy I think is a good thing. But why is that perceived problematic? Why are German states boycotting Palantir and portray you as a force of evil although you are obviously on the side of democracies? I just... But nobody sees it that way outside of you. I mean, we have... But in Europe, that's a widespread sentiment, particularly in Germany. And the point I would say to especially Germany where I care is is that really the white cent? I think that's way downstream of very bad decision-making. [9:32](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=572) So they perceive Palantir, by the way, again, I really, really deeply believe the they here are the professional media, left of center politicians, people who equate Peter and me with an old version of Germany, which they do not want, and that the vast majority of Germans, the vast majority of Germans, would prefer a world where the decision making was rational enough so you could evaluate Palantir in a rational way. That's what I believe. But let me just get to the, but the technical point that I think is very important is the decision making is objectively wrong. From the perspective of how would you protect the data? You need an application layer. And so the crazy thing about what's happening in Europe is we have the only industrially used application layer in [10:26](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=626) **Alex Karp:** the world. That application layer protects your data from being essentially abused by large language model providers. So what you have in Europe are technically illiterate bureaucrats [10:38](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=638) that in the name of protecting their people from a company they don't like because they don't like basically what Peter and I represent, which in my view is actually old school European values. Old school European values mean the products are the best in the world and they actually are morally superior because of the competence involved. And every single one of our products is like that. Those products cannot touch. So you're framing it as a moral thing. I'm saying the moral thing is way downstream of the competence problem. And if you want to solve the competence problem in tech in Europe, which is the bigger problem, Europe is not a relevant market for Palantir except for that I care. [11:19](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=679) The main accusation is data surveillance. Palantir is a form of espionage, and the most aggressive term was, you are techno-fascists. You are rather on the side of data surveillance, or are you rather on the side of... Well, first of all, the most interesting, fascinating thing, if it wasn't sad and very, very cowish is the products we provide pg for which is what she used in the police forces uh and intel services in europe uh foundry uh Nautology, which is used in the Ukraine, and Nautology is essentially an application layer. These products are the products you will need and the only ones available at scale that I'm aware of to stop what people mean by surveillance. [12:15](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=735) What do we mean by – what should Europe mean by surveillance? What it should mean is the IP, the indigenous know-how that still powers Europe, gets migrated to a different company, a company that's not European, that has no interest in Europe, that is not going to protect either the rights, meaning your right to privacy, your right to that data being purged. Also, your right to have – I mean, in Europe, one of the things I've always embraced is in America, we have rights that are basically moral rights. In Europe, you have economic rights and they're intertwined, which is always the vexing discussion. [12:50](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=770) So the vexing discussion between America and Europe is from the American perspective, you don't protect rights enough vis-a-vis government. So no European country has anything like a First or Second Amendment. That's vexing. And the Fourth Amendment in Europe is probably the closest in America's closest to what you have, meaning the right to privacy. But even there, without going to technical details, we have widely divergent ideas of how to do that. basic. And so, and then the vexing thing from a European perspective is Americans have all these rights vis-a-vis the government, but you have no right to protection vis-a-vis companies. [13:25](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=805) And there are basically, you have a right to succeed or fail here. You don't have a right to economic justice. I mean, that's maybe something people want politically, but in the constitution that is not enshrined. So you have a completely different idea of rights. I actually am a classic progressive. I'm still American in that I like my first, second, and fourth amendment, but I would like to see a better treatment for poor. You would still describe yourself as a progressive, correct? I would describe myself as one of the few last standing actual progressives in that I believe, well, first of all, I'm willing to defend the rights of someone I don't like. That somehow is gone. And again, it's particularly gone in Europe. Like, they frame this as I don't like you. How is that relevant? [14:13](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=853) Like, why do we moralize everything? Also, if it is about Germans who have been very successful in America in the Silicon Valley, Peter Thiel, Tobie Littke, Schindler, Philip Schindler. So, there are a couple of Germans who made impressive careers in the Silicon Valley, and we in Europe and in Germany do so far not really take advantage of it. But first, we moralize. We say, well, there must be something. Well, there's a difference in, like, I mean, as a generalization, Germany is a very Lutheran culture and we're a Calvinist culture. So, like, we equate success with being the Swiss or Calvinist, the Dutch or Calvinist. [14:55](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=895) But as a generalization, I would say Europe in general and Germany, obviously, in particular, is a Lutheran culture where Lutheran culture tends to view massive success you've acquired during your lifetime with great skepticism. Calvinists, we're like peak Calvinism. Maybe we even take it too far where we ascribe financial success to moral success. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. The way I tend to want to frame the question is, but the excess in Europe and moralizing is clearly, in my view, downstream from not wanting to solve the problems. And so, and then, and I think Palantir is the archetypical example. [15:43](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=943) You can say, basically against all technical evidence that Palantir are techno-fascists, what would that mean? And that we're engaged in surveillance when our products are actually the ones that stop that. Or you can ask the more serious question, what is going to happen? wrong in our culture that we have no other application layer that would allow us to do this. Probably the most impactful and successful German of recent decades is Peter Thiel. You know him well. He was the co-founder of Palantir. Is he an anti-democrat? Is he a religious fanatic? No, I mean, so actually the way I would reframe the beginning of the question is I think my treatment in Germany is, it's not what it should be, but it's honestly given that I, how much money I've made fairer than you could think. I think the treatment of Peter is atrocious. [16:36](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=996) Why? Well, first of all, again, it's one of the things I really, I would start with, again, and it's a very German concept. See, again, I think what is happening, what scares me a little in Germany is it's an importation of a version of America on top of German ideals that are kind of are attenuated um and uh and so the real question to ask is i think the question historically one would have asked in germany is can we afford this can we afford not to learn from this person and i think that's the right question germany's ask well you make a point and could say well it depends on where the person stands with regard to values so if somebody is intrinsically anti-democratic or has a leaning towards authoritarian regimes, that's a different thing than this person, I think, should not be used, should not be a role model. [17:33](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1053) The question is here, is it a misunderstanding of progress or is there a point? No, no. I'm going to, first of all, it is a misunderstanding. It's not true. But I'm going to push back on that. I don't believe, you can, I am reading books on Deng Xiaoping. I read a book on Mao. I'm reading books on Mao. I've read a lot of books on, I'm learning a lot. from Mao and Dijkstra. I don't agree with Mao in anything. So I don't believe anyone can afford not to learn. And if you're in a very bad situation, let's just take an obvious example, the German tech scene. The German tech scene should be the number two in the world by any historical standard. Honestly, the German tech scene was the number one in the world. [18:14](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1094) So number two is already like maybe shouldn't be the aspiration. It's on no one's list. You're one of the more successful investors in Germany. You probably know successful companies in Germany, but the most largest company in Germany by market cap, I think, is Siemens and Palantir is significantly larger, even where we're obviously undervalued currently. So my first cut, and you see this in this, like where you and I have been friends and we actually agree on the moral stuff pretty much one-to-one, pro-democracy, what does democracy mean, pro-data progression, in alignment with the West. We should have an alliance that is, those of us who don't agree, that alliance should be Western Europe, America, the Five Eyes, and Israel, and Japan, and Korea. [19:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1140) So we agree on those things, and many other things, almost dekungsgleich, meaning with almost, but where I think there is distance would be my approach, which is, the first question I would asked is, can Germany afford not to learn from Peter, even if all those things were true? Now, you're right. It should be clarified. I've known Peter since we were poor students at Stanford. We had conversations as like just poor students fighting about intellectual things. He was always heterodox right. I was always heterodox left. I don't think much has changed. He's still heterodox right, meaning he's very frustrating to classic Republicans. He's never been a neocon, like a lot of the thing. He actually does not really believe in classic Republican economic theory. He was the first person to flag and will always flag. [20:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1200) Like in conversations, you tend to have people on the right basically explaining all problems as the result of capitalism not being driven far enough. That's just not Peter's view. He's not a simplistic or caricature thinker on the right, meaning, and he's definitely not the caricature that the left wants to present. But what's fascinating to me is why is it so important to spend so much time blocking Peter from the German market? forget Palantir, like forget. It's not like I want to help Germany because I care about Europe and because I have a, I mean, because of historical family. And also I just felt at home in Germany for a long time. But for me, that's because like, let me just reframe the moral thing. It's so obviously thin what they're saying about him, what they say about Palantir. [20:51](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1251) So obviously doesn't make sense on the merits. You only need 10 minutes, five minutes on Google to see this isn't true. Why do people want to and need to believe that truth? It was the question that I believe. And by the way, it's not that different. I mean, you're talking about Peter and me. I could ask you the same question. Like I've known you for not as long as I've known Peter, but, and you were very successful before I was. I mean, I don't, the German, non-German audience may not realize how Axel Springer is discussed. Okay. So like there, I think there are very important political figures in Germany without naming names that see no difference between you and the right side of the Avde. Okay, it's absurd. I believe most of my left-wing friends in Germany think Axel Springer wakes up in the morning and tries to make the world worse and goes to bed with a smile when the world is worse. That's obviously not true. AI was supposed to take over the parts of the job you hate. [21:54](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1314) Turns out, it made your job even harder. Instead of doing the work, it gave you homework. ServiceNow's AI specialists get work done from start to finish. Cases get resolved. Loops get closed. With ServiceNow, you can do the parts of your job you're best at and delegate the rest. To put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. What is your take, actually, on the rise of the AfD in Germany? As somebody who has studied in Germany speaks German, cares very much about the well-being of the country. We see now this kind of polarization of society. The very left and the far right are on the rise. [22:37](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1357) And the AfD, what is it for you? Is it a normal party or is it? I think the AfD is very complex and I'm not reading all the news all the time. I give you, I think, first of all, the rise of extreme parties was super predictable. And I may have been shouting about this for the last 10 years. If you're going to bring in, doing widespread, very deep and large migration into Germany without the buy-in of the German people and without an honest discussion of the consequences. Again, I understand why this is hard to do in Germany and it's completely about history, which, you know, if my family hadn't left Germany, I would be a lampshade. I mean, they left before the Holocaust. I'm very, everybody understands and is sympathetic, but we haven't, you have in Europe, but especially in Germany, just an impossibly difficult, painful inability to talk about obvious facts. [23:43](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1423) But the average person on the street is living with these facts. You're avoiding my question. What do you think about the AfD? Palantir is defending Ukraine against Russia. The AfD is asking Ukraine. And just recently, one of the leaders said, we have to... Of course, Ukraine at the table to negotiate with Russia. That is turning history and perpetrator and victim upside down. No, no, I totally – I'm going to get to the point where I agree with you. I just – again, like you're starting with the moral thing. I'm starting with the economic reason and cultural reason why this thing exists. See, the question you asked is why are they in ascendancy? [24:23](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1463) And they're much – Afdeh is much stronger than they appear because I have friends who five years ago were telling me they would never vote for the Afdeh. who are voting for the off day, like people who are social Democrats. And then when the off day is polling at 40%, there's another 10 points above that that would vote for them if they weren't the off day. And so honestly, I think the off day is just the consequence of weak leadership in the center of the political spectrum. But that does not necessarily mean that that disruption is done by a force, by a political force that has a concept that will be good for Germany. [25:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1500) I personally think that the IFD is just not an alternative because it is intrinsically in large parts of the party, pro-Russia, pro-China, even with a certain tolerance to authoritarian forces in the Middle East. It is in large parts intrinsically anti-capitalist. It is in large parts anti-American. Just recently we heard that Germany is divided in two parts. We have East Germany, we are the German Germans, and then we have West Germany, we are the American Germans. So, this is just not an alternative, and I just would like to hear from you because some people are accusing Peter or you that you have a certain leaning or understanding for that. [25:40](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1540) No, no, okay. Try to clarify. Well, this is, again, I basically agree with everything you said, but the point I would push back on, I have a deep understanding for why they're succeeding. So, it's like I would not vote for the AfD if I were able to vote and were voting in Germany. And, but that's different from, I think part of the reason they're successful is that, first of all, no one actually believes, like, let's just say the parties, the classic parties are actually going to take migration seriously, but no one believes they're going to do it. so you get people voting for off day basically because you know it's a protest vote and you know you know your germans and people who care about germany like me have been screaming and been right and no one listens and not only does no one listen and you are a great example of this you are honestly pretty left-wing on most issues as far as i can tell and i've known you for 20 years. And you're kind of classically, if I were to describe you, classically left-leaning person who's a little bit more bought into the capitalist narrative than I am. That's how I would describe it. If I were to describe you properly. Okay. You get pilloried and you tell everybody, [27:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1621) I'm against the off day. God knows you have no sympathy for anyone who's pro-Russia. I mean, like you believe for that like we're on the front line put in i should always clarify we have nothing against the russians we have nothing against the chinese but we have a lot i'm just kidding i i i'm a tai chi i'm an expert in one of the four great treasures in china i'm reading all these things i i i have a deep appreciation of russian culture russian math i have so we agree on that. But shorthand, if I were to say what I think motivates you after watching you for 20 years is you are deeply pro-democratic. You're kind of progressive on most issues, except for you do not like you don't want anything that's stupid. It won't work. And if I had to say where you're kind of a zealot, it's on the, you know, anti-Putin, anti-China stuff and actually on no tolerance for anti-Semitism. [27:59](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1679) So that's your... Those are your positions. Those positions are, I mean, they're solidly mainstream. And I can tell people who are listening and want to hear this, like even in private discussions, I'm much more like, yeah, I want to understand why. Of course, I'm not interested in voting for them, but I understand why. And you're more on the, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong, which is why our dialogues are fun. This is basically like it would be in private. Okay. So that I, Palantir, we, something I am actually frustrated with in Europe is, again, the anti-terror things would be very different and Ukraine would not have been able to succeed. Okay. Let me just finish this. But so obviously I'm not interested in supporting a party that is deeply sympathetic with Putin, is interested in, like, I think Europe made it, like, that is sympathetic with the CCP. [28:59](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1739) And quite frankly, these parties are complex, but they're, you know, the AfD does contain people that I kind of would suspect would not like me very much. Okay, but Alex, I think the frustration of people is very much driven by a failed migration policy, a failed energy policy, and the journey in Europe is completely... And the GDP decline. Exactly. It's not delivering on economic growth. That has to do with a lack of startup culture, of risk culture. In America, people deploy millions to a new idea and just believe that the impossible is possible. Whereas in Europe and in Germany, we have to a large degree a very risk-focused culture. [29:44](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1784) And here we are entering the era of AI, whether it's an opportunity or a threat. And I think we should also discuss the cultural differences between America and Europe and Germany in the context of these developments. I think we could turn it around and we could say, this is not an opportunity because I see a lot of AI skepticism in America. I see in America almost more AI skepticism at this moment than in Europe among normal people. If we have an all hands in America, people are raising posters and saying AI is killing our jobs. If we do the same in Germany or in Europe, people are saying, well, we want to learn, we want to understand, we want to take advantage of it. [30:26](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1826) Do you think that there could be... Well, yeah, but not without acknowledging that there's a crisis for the very simple reason. First of all, the debate is different. Europe is partly not skeptical of AI because you are not, like, for example, take the Pallinger example. We are the only product available that makes AI useful on the battlefield and safe and useful and safe and commercial. It's very hard to discuss AI when what they mean are largely companies being slightly unfair that would not be able to compete in America. So you're talking about AI light. But the thing is… But let's talk also about the opportunity. [31:05](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1865) I mean, I get it and we agree that Germany has not delivered, Europe has not delivered. What can we do to turn the world? Let me just finish this. nothing's going to work before the chancellor gets up and says, we have a crisis. Because to fix the problem, again, who's going to fix the problem? The problem is you are going to have to bring in a Tobias or a Schindler or a Thiel as in a very significant role. You can't rebuild with people who've never done this before. And then who's going to build under what conditions? what are the working conditions? How do you bring the whole society along? How much can someone work per day? Tech works because people work are dedicated, like doggedly dedicated, around the clock for years. And by the way, if somebody doesn't belong on the team, you can move them out of the team or out of the company. By the way, the... [32:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1920) For tech people, again, I'm wildly, the people I got along with best when I was on boards in Germany were the unions. So I'm not saying, but you don't need worker protection for someone who isn't a software engineer that could work at an LLM. But to get this to work, you have to have someone saying, this is a crisis. I think you're also going to have to say, this is an economic zone. We are going to create an economic zone in Germany. And in that economic zone, competition is going to look exactly like it looks in America, or does in China, or does in Israel. Why are people in America more afraid of India than in Europe at the moment? Do they know more? [32:41](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=1961) Well, first of all, yeah, I mean, really, honestly, yes. And so, like, again... So you think the fear is appropriate? it? Of course. The simple metaphor that is simple but works is the large language models are like uranium. Okay. You can use it for a good cause or for a bad cause? No, no. They have to be processed. And in the processing, they become, first of all, just touching them probably is not a good idea. But so using them, like again... Yeah, but if you use the metaphor of uranium, I think it's very appropriate because you can use it for bad or for good causes. And here again, people start to have a moral discussion or discuss whether it's good or bad instead of saying, let's make sure that we use it for good causes. [33:28](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2008) I mean, again, there is this comparison to a knife. You can use a knife in order to prepare food and you can use a knife in order to kill people. So we should not basically forbid knives. reason why, but it's both true. And again, this is why I think these things are actually economic and technical first. It is, you have to understand what the technologies do. You have to have people who are working natively with these technologies and those people have to be involved. And again, here it's like, you basically have different parts of the stack. You have the GPU part of the stack. So that's chips. You have essentially in an enterprise, you're going to have a data integration part of the stack. You can do that by hand. If you want civil liberties, you're going to, we do that. You have an application part of the stat. So ontology, what does it mean? How does it mean? How's it deployed? How is it safely deployed? How do you process, how to use? And you have the large language models, both closed and open models. And the closed and open models have different advantages to the world here. To have a tech scene in Europe, you need world [34:34](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2074) **Alex Karp:** leading components in all those parts. That's not realistic. So you're going to have to figure out which components are actually the ones that could advance European industry, European sovereignty. The sovereignty issue is a completely technical issue. And it's not just Germany, [34:53](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2093) honestly. What's really happening in Europe is you have bureaucrats whose primary idea is, how do I protect the market against American companies? And everything else is downstream. Let me again try to twist it towards an opportunity. If this kind of anti-AI sentiment is ongoing in America, and I fear that America could see an election campaign where the two parties are basically competing in order to explain that their party is protecting their people better against AI. I think that's a very dangerous case, but that's what's happening and has already started. So, if that's ongoing and every kind of new data center is a big issue and raises a lot of protests and so on, wouldn't that be an opportunity for Europe and say, okay, here, welcome. [35:41](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2141) Build the data centers here. Matthias, I feel like I'm more German than you. I'm just going to put that out there. You're playing the American. I'm playing it. Like, okay, of course it's an opportunity, but it's only an opportunity if it's technically credible. So like, if you asked me, I'm in charge of Germany or in charge of France or some great nation. [36:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2161) **Alex Karp:** You have to say, first, we have a crisis. We are going to get the best people in the world to come. [36:07](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2167) We are going to call the best people in the world and say, what would stop you from coming? By the way, I haven't told this to this chancellor, but I've literally told directly or indirectly to every chancellor and every important politician that you can think of for the last 10, 15 years. you got to do what Israel does, what China does, what America would do, what we did after World War II. Like we built our industry on German scientists. Like it's like, and the people who built the bomb, like when we built the bomb, like Einstein writes the president, the massive opportunity begins with, I know we have a problem that is dangerous for the present and future of our society and has to be solved. There's only a political leader in Europe has to make that statement. It would be best if that was Germany for leaving all of our emotional attachments to Germany simply because Germany once had the best tech scene and still is the driving economic motor of Europe and there is no Europe without Germany. Okay. But then, sorry, let me just, then the question is, you're going to have to bring those people over and they're going to have to be the ones distributing the capital, hiring the people, saying how you do this. Of course, what happens is [37:32](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2252) the local people, I mean, Germany has more talent and France is the same thing than any other country per square. Okay. Those people learn how to do it and then build their things themselves. And that's, and by the way, another thing, it's talent, not money. It's like, it is part of the problem. Let me give you a different version. Part of the reason it's hard to do the optimistic thing is every day Europe makes another decision that makes it harder to fix the problem. Okay, Alex, we agree absolutely on the opportunity and on the necessity to bring back to Germany the best talent. And fortunately, we have a lot of people who made their careers, who know how things are working, and who still feel a certain degree of patriotism, or in any case, want that Europe and that Germany succeed. [38:22](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2302) So let's bring them back. Let's take advantage of them, or let's use them where they are. We agree on that. But a fundament for that would be that people believe in the opportunity and believe in the necessity to embrace AI, to be at the forefront of these developments. Could you briefly explain why AI is more of an opportunity than a threat if you think so? Well, I mean, again, I'm just going to start on the battlefield. It's not where you want me to start, maybe. But without AI systems, Russia would have won. And by the way, without pre-AI, but things that can almost do that, the parties that you're very focused on would be running Europe because you would have terror attacks that are rampant. [39:03](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2343) So Europe is already completely existing because of these technologies. Europe, as we know it now with all its problems, would not exist without these technologies being used actively. So that's like the baseline. Then you get to, okay, Germany now has to compete with China. And to do that, it's going to have to rebuild how it builds cars, how it processes chemicals, how it changes its historically dominant industries into industries that can compete against America and China. And it has a limited workforce and migration is failing. Okay. How would you raise GDP where you have very strict laws, but some of which may have to change? [39:48](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2388) you have energy things which probably will change but it's going to take a long time where where migration has not worked there is only one technology that can do this and by the way i tend to think these things should be always asked and answered in the empirical. There are two and a half countries that are embracing these technologies. America, which has GDP growth. In fact, part of the problem we have politically is it works almost too well. It's just not widely distributed. China seems to be working and Israel seems to be working. Where have people not embraced these technologies? And so that's like, but again, if you just start with the core problem Germany has, it's an export culture. Its products have to be better than everyone else's or no one's going to buy them. And you can basically ask Germans, do you think your products are going to be responsible for your economic health, Volsstand, or is it going to be your diplomatic service that's going to deliver that? You're going to rely on German popularity. And so the opportunity, I tend to think the opportunity is that if you want to succeed and thrive, there's only one set of technologies that can do this. How are you going to rebuild your car industry so it's as good as [41:03](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2463) China's? Just start there. Again, people are doing that. We have partners. How are you going to rebuild these industries so you can compete and win? There is no other way. Alex, I think we are living in one of the most exciting times of civilization. There is so much change. There is so much progress there is progress on so many levels in highest and accelerated speed it is the case for space it is the case for health it is the case for computing and robotics it is the case also for defense unfortunately we need that so my question is although we are at the eve of an incredible, accelerated productivity gain and potentially a better form of living in civilization. [41:59](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2519) I really see that opportunity. Nevertheless, it is one of the most skeptical times. There is a lot of fear. There is a lot of anger. How do you explain that? Is it simply the speed of change? Well, it's too much. Now, let me just focus on America. I think... And by the way, that is not a European origin. No, no, no. That is a white problem. And it is an arguably bigger problem here. This is where I do think America might have... Like, I think... Okay, Europe has an obvious tech problem with political consequences that are really bad. America has a more of a political problem where left, far left, far right of just like... [42:40](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2560) they, it's more hurt that people are successful than any solution. And they're very serious about that. And, you know, the idea they couldn't win is not true, unfortunately. The central framing I'm skeptical of here with people, so people I agree with, probably you and definitely people in my tech world. It's always like, this is going to be a bastion of plethora of good things that everyone's going to profit from. And there are no dangers. I'm not saying you say this, but it is a commonly held view. And the tech people want everyone to just stand up and say that. And I think that is not credible. But what I think is actually just like the overselling of AI in this country is really, really, really somewhat disconcerting, but it's also depressing because you don't have to do it. This is a natural resource that is net excruciatingly valuable for the betterment of humanity, but it does have some negative externalities. First of all, we don't know where it's going to go. These things are not deployable without processing engines, application layers, ontology, et cetera. [44:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2641) **Alex Karp:** And the biggest problem in this country is it does – while it will raise the standard of living of the average person, the people involved are likely to get 10, 100 times wealthier than they already are. [44:14](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2654) That's a problem for society. You know, the way I try to explain to my Silicon Valley colleagues is, do you think that the wealth, I mean, if we go back to history, then innovation and new technologies have always led to growth, to prosperity, and to an improvement of the standard of living of all people, particularly of the lower income classes. that has started centuries ago. It was true when the wheel was invented. It was true when the steam engine was invented. It was true when computers were invented. It has, in the end, if we draw a line, contributed to the well-being of people and it has improved the shape of society. [45:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2700) Nevertheless, at the beginning, there's always the concern the steam engine is going to destroy. Let me just, sorry. jobs. We are always afraid. So my point is, do you think that it is now different? Let me give you a different answer that I think sums up a lot of the problems in Europe and America. This is a new playbook. Or there is no playbook. Like, why am I doing so well? Because this is a neurodiversion age. And what the people had skills. So, so this is a different revolution. And even if that is true, and let's assume it is that everybody will do well, I think that's not, I think most people will do better. [45:42](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2742) You think society is going to divide into a very few with incredible wealth and the mass that has nothing? No, no, no, I'm not saying that. Again, I think that's like, that's kind of the, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying most people who are middle and middle and middle class will do better. Everybody, people who are willing to change their jobs are likely to do better, but not everyone. But that's not the real political problem. We have a political problem in this country, not a tech problem. In past revolutions, the person at the bottom, maybe their salary doubled and the person at the top became five times wealthier. But like it was very unusual to be a billionaire 40 years ago, right? You now have a revolution where, you know, I could become 20 times wealthier than I am now. And the person who was working out here could become, you know, they could have their salary could go over, certainly could go up significantly by any normal standard over a period of 10 years, go up 50% or double. Okay. It, when you have a complete decoupling of like unimaginable wealth and normal and that unimaginable wealth. And then this is where we're not really allowed to say this, but it's done by people that you don't [46:57](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2817) really relate to. Like these are like very oddly shaped IQ specimens that, you know, you probably wouldn't want to have over for dinner. And if they were over for dinner, you have nothing to talk to about. And by the way, vice versa. And, you know, and then our whole fabric is not like I got screamed at for like, first of all, it wasn't a draft. I was like, we should have some kind of service. By the way, by that I meant hospital, taking care of old people. Our fabric of our society is already strained. Wealthy people, it's not like in the 50s and 60s where people actually knew each other, went to the same schools. We're already totally separate societies, right? It basically is i mean it's inflammatory but we already live in a separate but non-equal society and then you hypercharge it with like extreme economic wealth but like egregiously extreme while everybody else is kind of growing and even if it's not true people are afraid even if it is true that most people raise the actual fear people have is I'm going to lose my job. [48:01](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2881) Now, that fear, even if it's not true, the people running the lab companies who are the leaders told you it's true. They're telling you your life is going to suck. And they're also getting very wealthy and you don't find them very likable. And people who used to be on the winning side of history are now suddenly very much afraid that they would lose their job. I traveled to the Silicon Valley three times over the last few weeks, and the level of nervousness is really surprising. A lot of people think we have only six months until our jobs are going to be gone, and that is the tech community, that is developers. [48:43](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2923) And they work day and night in order to reinvent themselves because they are afraid that in a few months they have no income. And then the political version that scares me a lot, and I do think, and I'm yelling at everyone in Silicon Valley in private and on public, I've been a Democrat, despite what you may be reading about me most of my life, I'm still a 70s progressive, which is actually a real progressive, meaning I want to help the poor. I just don't want to burn the rich. The Silicon Valley line basically is, don't believe your lying eyes. Okay? This doesn't work politically. By the way, it's the same problem Germany and Europe have about all these issues. [49:23](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=2963) And if you tell people, don't believe your lying eyes, you know what they do? They protest vote. That's what happens. And they protest vote because what they're really saying is, you are telling me not to believe everything I know. By the way, also just overarching in Europe and in America, the political class is low legitimacy. So what you know, what your version of reality is, they're always lying to me. I don't know why they're lying. That's hard to figure out. but you people believe they're always lying to me. And again, to just overly tie this in to annoyingly, why I'll give you a different version. Why is Palantir the most popular brand in the world? People always frame it as the most unpopular. We have for every time you read someone, we have a hundred times. I'll tell you why we're the most popular brand in the world. [50:07](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3007) And that's why they attack us often. We're the most popular brand in the world because I might be crazy. I am saying things you don't want to hear like the West is superior. We need national service, which means helping out old people. It doesn't mean no industry should be fully aligned with the country. We have to fight for these things. We have real adversaries. If we're not competent, we'll lose. These things, technologies are not perfect. And you have to listen to annoying people. And by the way, you can't blame everything on a country you hate, whatever. Okay. And you know why we're so popular? Because everybody else is telling you they're only trying to figure out what you want to hear so they can... That's the felt version. And that's why when politicians in this country or anyone else say, hey, don't believe your lying eyes on migration. Don't believe your lying eyes on nuclear. Don't believe your lying eyes on AI. [50:56](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3056) They get up and they vote for people who are like, screw these people. I'm going to burn down the house. What you are addressing is, I think, one of the most important topics. It is trust. It is about trust. Trust is lost and trust has been lost in large parts of the political spectrum and the political scene. And trust has also been damaged with regard to media and their credibility. So we could have a long discussion about that would be super interesting. But we have to come to an end sooner or later, Alex, and that's why I would like to touch upon geopolitics. And here the arms race, mainly in AI, but not only, also in conventional military aspects between America and China, or perhaps even ideally between America and Europe on the one side and on the other side, China and Russia and Iran and other evil forces. [51:46](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3106) How do you see that thing going to develop? How high is the chance that America is continuing to have the upper hand on AI and the developments? And how likely is it that China, simply because there is no ethical limitation and there is more access to data of an incredibly large population, that China is going to bring their grace? Let me reframe annoyingly it as the inverse, that our moral standards, the advantage America has and Europe does have, and I really hope, and Ukraine proves. So it's very deep in the European history and can be really exposed is that solving the moral issue often uncovers a technical issue about which you're not aware. [52:38](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3158) So, again, Palantir is the data protection platform. It is the sovereign platform that drives our revenue. it is why ukrainians did so well why israel against iran overperformed why america overformed and then in tech there is an advantage if you've actually been on the battlefield that so that china has those there are actually disadvantages access to data i i think actually honestly that might be roughly equal given significant collection on the battle but china has for example uh medical data of 700 million people. China has full transparency through complete surveillance with regard to behavioral data of their people. [53:17](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3197) I think that's a different quality because there's simply no democratic... Again, we should have... That's a longer technical, and it depends what you mean, bioinformatics, machinery, or battlefield. Battlefield, I would push back on that. And I would also... Also, there's not the correlation between – too much data can also be a problem. It really depends on their processing capabilities. Also, depending on whether Europe and America changes, there's a lot of complexity in that statement. It's both true and not true. It depends on the thing. I'll give you an advantage I think China really does have, which is these technologies – Palantir has like 4,000 people, 4,200 or something. [54:02](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3242) We're on every major battlefield. The reality is there are very big hardware projects that are still valuable. If you look at Iran as opposed to Ukraine, heavy hardware, plane, ships, other things played a big role. Those things employ thousands, millions of people. They end up with a political constituency. [54:25](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3265) **Alex Karp:** One of the biggest problems we have in the West that China doesn't have is these technologies are clearly the future combined with others, but you just are feeding fewer families. And so it's much harder for us to shift the budget to exactly where it should go. [54:43](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3283) whereas in a dictator like china and also china is run by more an engineering class so i think they they i would suspect they have a better like if you i'm pretty sure if you went to the chinese level like two levels below the person at the top and you did that in any european country you would find somebody i could explain the technical issues to i don't i don't know though that person is in Europe and it's harder in the West. So I think that that's the advantage. The disadvantage they have is one, people like you and me and the people that Europe can recruit really don't want to live in a country where they have no democratic rights or economic rights. [55:20](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3320) Two, the actual, again, this is where I think the commercial and battlefield thing of American industry is at battle. These things are not theoretical. And like America for, again, And I've been against – I'm not pro-war, despite what people think. But one of the advantages Ukraine, Israel, America has, just quite frankly, is we know a lot about war, what works, what doesn't, how it works, what products work, what products don't work. So I would say, again, the chief political – the chief technological weakness we have in the West is kind of political. It's not technical. Okay, but if you had to take a bet now, would you rather bet that China is going to win the race in 10 years down the road or will the U.S. keep it? [56:06](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3366) Well, again, 10 years too far out, we don't – that's impossible to answer because also, again, I think the chief problem we have is political. Like, would China win if you start banning the ability to procure – look, again, I'm not saying all the anti-Palantir stuff is funded by our adversaries, but it's also funded by the adversaries. what is the best thing that can happen to Russia and China and Iran is you don't buy the things that work. So like that, these things, and you know, who knows this? I mean, these people, again, they are excruciatingly intelligent and ruthless. And if they find out that in your local culture, there are people who view technology as witchcraft, you can bet your last dollar, they're going to fund those people. And you see this in America on all sorts of issues. You see it vis-a-vis us everywhere, like the most inane things that actually kind of work. But, you know, So it's like, does the, is the West able to continue to produce these things? By the way, but again, I think Silicon Valley in this country and your people who think they're advocating for sovereignty in Europe are, you know, could really have to do a better job. [57:10](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3430) And so, but if you asked, if we can mitigate that risk by being more honest and more frontal and more realistic, both in America and Europe about our strengths and weaknesses, we have a very good chance of winning, but it is very good chance. like it's like you can't like just take the actual technical things the best open models in the world now are chinese that's a problem also because the close model some of the close model providers are actually trying to monetize your data and if you have china offering models that are where they're encouraging an application layer like ours interestingly and you can control the weights and And that's why we did this whole thing with NVIDIA. [57:52](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3472) But it's like the openings here for China are very, very real. And again, I'm just repeating myself. But if they can control the political apparatus because it's one tribe, one person, one gender, and we somehow can't do that, that's a problem. Alex, the very last question of our conversation. We are living in a world where most of the centrist countries and their leadership is stumbling or weak, where populists and autocrats are on the rise. We are challenged by opportunities and there is a lot of fear and anger and at the time, a lot of opportunity. We have an incredibly unpredictable geopolitical situation. [58:50](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3530) Wars are part of daily reality. A couple of years down the road, do you think that what we are experiencing now, all these discussions, all these changes are… the beginning of the end of the open society model and we will have in five to ten years a more autocratic world where strong men and autocrats are dominant or do you rather think that what we are experiencing now is the healthy wake-up call is the beginning of a reinvention of a rejuvenation of the centrist, rules-based, open society model. Well, thank you. That's a great way to end. When I'm saying China and our adversaries have an advantage in procurement because of very narrow selection, and what I'm trying to say is, we don't know the answer to this question, but we have to fight like hell to make sure we are not in societies where they're like the crazy thing is the functional allies of our adversaries now uh who claim to want these progressive things both actually far right and far left which are actually structurally very similar are helping to fight for structures that would not include anyone like them like so i want a society where it is the best people succeed, those people, every, the inputs are very, as equal as they can be. The outputs depend on [1:00:26](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3626) your aptitude and discipline and honestly, unfortunately, luck and other variables where their rule of law is enforced, including if you do not like the person. So there's a right of free speech, whether you like the person or not. There's a right of privacy, whether you like the person or not. There's a right to put checks on the government, whether, you know, they like you or not, where we are able to do creative things and the people who do them get to keep some portion of the proceeds, but where those proceeds are distributed enough so that everybody feels like they're participating, that we have an idea of national order, but that's actually national, but progressive. Like, you know, you get to be Swiss if you're Swiss, but you also believe that people who aren't Swiss have a valuable culture. You get to be American if you're you know the the the people who are working the hardest to destroy that those concepts and are the most effective in joining those concepts call themselves progressive they're not progressive or they call themselves you know uh i don't know super far right they're not even right wing like you know one of the one of the things i think is hilarious though on that score is you know i spent [1:01:38](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3698) a lot of time in germany uh talking to people who you know some of them regretted some of them didn't regret their role in history and dark times, I think they would be very amused to know that people who've taken up their mantle on the right are mostly people of color, gay, and or Jewish. So we've had some progress in our societies. We know people on the far right are very diverse on all fronts. But people on the far left, I think, the people I hung out with in the the Frankfurter School, which is a truly, was left of center where I was, but true progressives would be somewhat not amused to know that the actual philosophical background of most modern actual non-progressive progressives is not Marx, it's Heidegger. And they're not actually left-wing. They're actually asking for things that are classically right-wing. What are those things? They're asking for, we all get to be the same. We're all defined by who we are, by how we were born or what we impute ourselves to be. There are only rights for a sect of people, a sector of people. The rights do not apply to people who are not like us because of wealth or because they think differently. And that we want a society that essentially looks communal and [1:03:00](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3780) there's no way. These are like prototypical, non-progressive, classically right-wing thoughts just reapplied to people who call themselves progressive. And that's the society that Palantir and I are effectively working against. How are we working against it? By making people, giving people more sovereignty, whether they believe it or not, giving people, protecting people from terrorism with civil liberties, by making businesses wealthier, better, where the businesses keep their actual alpha, by helping Ukraine, Israel, and America establish a dominant position, that's actually helping. Alex, one of the most beautiful sentences of democracy is we agree to disagree. In that case, I have to say, we agree. [1:03:47](https://realalpha.app/v/xm0rGvvxVOM/?t=3827) Thank you very much for the conversation. Thank you. Take care.