Holmes’s story stays compelling partly because she keeps renewing it

Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

1. 28:54

   You know, I've long asked myself that. Why are people so fascinated with this person? Because I got to say, I found the story interesting, you know, for a couple years, but it's gotten a little bit old for me personally. I think the answer is that people are captivated with the psychology of deceit, especially when it's a woman doing the deceiving. And I think there's another dimension here, which is that this was a medical story. This was not just a fraud where investors were defrauded. It wasn't just your run-of-the-mill corporate fraud. There was a public health element to it where patients' lives were arguably put in.

2. 29:46

   jeopardy. And so I think people are just fascinated with the notion of what goes through the mind of a woman who's willing to play with patients' lives. And I think that, you know, clearly a decade in, people are still captivated by this. Caitlin, you were saying before that you felt like gender played a pretty significant role also in her rise. I mean, do you agree with John that this is part of what's happening with the continuing kind of interest in her? Yes, I think that as a culture in the United States, we see men lie all the time and they get caught in those lies and we don't see them reviled in this way. So, you know, I'm not equating, you know, stealing money or a phony business deal with exactly what Elizabeth Holmes did. But I think we are shocked when we see a woman do that and we are not shocked when we see a man do that. And I do think that gender plays a huge

3. 30:49

   role in just like the idea that we want to continue to drag, like, you know, focus and energy against a woman over time. I think there's a lot of energy for that. Now, I'm not saying at all that I think that that energy is not deserved for Elizabeth Holmes, but I do think there's culture at play on the question of who we disparage and continue to disparage over time. And Max, to your question, I mean, her gender was absolutely a part of the rise because like Caitlin was saying, like she was the entire tech press was looking for examples of standout female founders, because at that time in the mid 2010s, everyone kind of looked around and realized like, oh my god they're where are all the women like silicon valley more so than any other sector seems to have a real problem with like elevating women when we've got all these tech bro unicorn

4. 31:42

   founders where why aren't there like any female founders of billion dollar companies and then suddenly here is one and so that's why she got put on the cover of like every business magazine because we finally found an example of it and so and i think this kind of happened later too with the quote unquote girl boss era where like a lot of female founders got disproportionate press because there was so much excitement about promoting a female founder. And then of course they got disproportionate criticism and like, you know, they would call it takedowns because of all of that press and attention. Yeah. And Erin, like to your point, it's like literally I wrote about her because I was a woman editor at a mostly male magazine covering a mostly male industry.

5. 32:27

   And it was so novel to me to find a founder who was a woman, and not only that, but someone in biotech. So I do think gender played a huge role in my, personally, my covering her at that early stage. But to your question of the enduring interest, that one is a little bit different because there are just so many elements of her story that are a little bit like odd or attention grabbing. I mean, from the outfits to the voice to like all of the kind of like the secrecy and obsession.

6. 32:57

   Being a mother. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. There are just enough pieces of it that I feel like it touches every possible demographic. Like one thing from the trial, I remember, you know, talking to a lot of the toward the end, there were a lot of spectators showing up and including people who were in a book club who read John's book and who came together as like a little book club outing. And, you know, I'm asking them, like, what are you guys doing here?

7. 33:22

   And one of them told me, which I'll never forget, like, oh, we're just fans of white collar crime. And I was like, are you you mean as a as a book genre or as a genre of story? OK, sure. And in the same way that there are people who are fans of like, you know, murder stories or murder podcasts, like there's also a fraud contingent as well. John must be such a celebrity to those people. Yeah, I agree with everything you guys just said. But let me ask this, though. We're now, you know, 11 years after I broke this this story in the Wall Street Journal. And who is stoking the interest? Who is recreating reasons for us to to again pay attention to her?

8. 34:11

   It's Elizabeth herself. She is the one who invited these filmmakers into her home 30 days, 34 days before she was scheduled to go to prison. She's the one who is still asking for the public attention. And so, you know, I think we also have her own very proactive efforts to blame for this, for why this is still, you know, a story that's in the news and that's generating tons of coverage 11 years later.

9. 34:48

   That's a great point. And honestly, I would not be surprised if Sam Bankman-Fried is currently emailing Nathan Fielder about getting a meeting.