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Founders · 4 min · Sep 28, 2025
Manage energy instead of filling every hour
Daniel Ek argues that productive work depends on energy, not a packed calendar or fixed morning routine. He shares how a four-hour-sleep experiment backfired after three weeks.
Daniel Ek is co-founder and CEO of Spotify.
Co-founded Spotify in 2006 and now guides its long-term strategy as executive chairman.

David Senra, Host · Host, Founders
Has read an entrepreneur's biography every week for Founders since 2016.
About this segment
Daniel Ek argues that productive work depends on energy, not a packed calendar or fixed morning routine. He shares how a four-hour-sleep experiment backfired after three weeks.
From “Daniel Ek, Spotify | David Senra”, Sep 28, 2025. Watch the full episode
Thanks. We'll look at and fix what's off.
“I've become more obsessed about sort of managing my energy because like if you have time but you have no energy you're not going to accomplish anything anyway”
Daniel Ekat 1:15:30 · Founders1:15:30Takeaways
- Notice what restores your energy and what drains it.
- Build your schedule around when you work best.
- Ek’s attempt to reduce sleep left him feeling unwell for weeks.
In this episode
Full episode- 14:22Solve a problem worth a decade of your life6:08
- 33:41Trust compounds through consistent actionsPro pick 6:47
- 52:18A founder must change roles as the company grows5:04
- 1:57Sustained happiness follows personally defined impact7:08
- 41:33Shadow leaders to learn how their culture works5:05
- 1:04:35Creative teams need room for bad ideas5:56
1:14:38Manage energy instead of filling every hour4:25
Transcript
Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.
- 1:14:43
um obsessed about time i'm really not i'm i'm i'm more obsessed about energy management wait yeah let's get to now what do you mean well i i mean you know you you constantly hear this thing about all these uh you know you're supposed to wake up at 4 a.m in the morning you're supposed to do all these things etc it's like first and foremost there's no rule like um i know a lot of successful people as i'm sure you do too it's like some of them wake up at you know noon some and then wake up at 4 a.m.
- 1:15:12
You can do a lot of different things. The obsession with morning rituals is stupid. Yeah. But the other thing is about sort of you're supposed to pack every, like you're supposed to have meetings every 15 minutes and like a 15-minute increments is better than a 30-minute increments, so on and so forth. Look, it might work for you. And for some people it might be like the absolute best thing. I've become more obsessed about sort of managing my energy because like if you have time but you have no energy you're not going to accomplish anything anyway so how do you manage your energy then well it's about finding out um what gives you energy right to begin with uh and what drains energy and um it's about finding out which time during the day um you're most productive um and it's again innately about understanding yourself and what the whole world tries to do is get you to conform
- 1:16:05
to their schedule oh you have an 8 a.m morning meeting because that's when you get into the office or you're supposed to do this and that and all these other things again in a big corporations and it's about conformity to like the average or to an okay standard instead of going for excellence and what truly truly is unique and i think the truly truly unique thing is you got to just figure out what works for you and you got to do more of that and that's um more about energy management i believe and it's so much more about like even before this thing i think both you and i we went and worked out right you know that that gives me energy yeah it's what's gonna sustain the rest of my day i used to not do workouts at all because i thought i don't have time there's no productivity i used to go for the worst uh productivity thing i did was i was at one point
- 1:16:56
doing these 15 minute naps i don't know if you've heard about this exercise no it's a really bad idea by the way so don't try this but i i sort of learned that you can you can like daisy shane sleep together by doing like these 50 oh it's like polyphasic yeah yeah okay so the basic gist is you're supposed to be able to last like on four hours of sleep and i was like oh this is great so i did that and actually the interesting side part is it worked for about three weeks And then I missed one of these 15-minute increments.
- 1:17:29
And holy shit, I was like completely suicidal for like weeks afterwards. It was like not a great thing at all. But the point being is, you know, it's about sort of finding that energy management for yourself. I think certainly there's common wisdom around sort of what an average good sleep should look like, et cetera. But the reality is there are some people that will work on six hours of sleep and they'll do just fine and may even be more productive that way.
- 1:17:57
I wish I was like that. Like if I can have a superpower, I always say like I like to fly. The first thing is I want to fly like Superman. If I can't do that, I just want sustained high energy levels 24-7 because I need a ton of sleep. And I felt bad about this because the same exact reason you're describing. It's like people are like, no, you got to get up at 430 or you got to sleep less or sleep faster.
- 1:18:16
Arnold Schwarzenegger would say you got to sleep faster. And then I'm reading James Dyson's first autobiography. And, you know, a guy who made one of the most successful companies of all time. He's still doing it at 76 years old. And he goes, I need a hell of a lot of sleep, 10 hours a night, or my entire next day is ruined. I'm like, wait a minute. This guy built – he's a single shareholder of a multi, multi, multi-billion dollar company.
- 1:18:38
Built some of the best products in the world. And he's sleeping 10 hours a day. There are no – you just said, there are no rules. No, it really isn't. And so, I mean, look, you just got to find that thing, right? But when you realize that, so if you start with that as the basic thing, like all the things you and I have been talking about for this time now, you know, the reality is it's like it's about knowing yourself, which is really hard.