Holmes’s partnership pattern appears to be repeating

Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

1. 35:08

   She's got something that he just doesn't have. So one thing I'd love to talk about is the romantic relationships of Elizabeth Holmes, which have been on display in these two giant ways in the trial and all of the reporting around what was happening at Theranos, but also in this movie in which we are inside her marriage, inside her house, with her husband and her children. And I don't want to spoil the movie, but I would say the kind of extreme devotion that was captured in a lot of what we learned about her relationship with Sonny Balwani was very, very similar here. And there's something watching this as a woman of trying to toggle between, well, first of all, you're still asking yourself the questions, is this real? Do they think it's real? Do real people talk like this to each other? Like, you know, that's one fundamental question. But then, like, what is

2. 36:07

   the role of this, you know, partnership, romantic partnership and business partnership? And then why is she picking these guys what i what i found so fascinating is when she's talking her and billy are getting really excited like jazzing each other up talking about theranos 2.0 and her parents are there and they're just kind of slowly zooming in on her parents and the looks on their faces are they're just you can just see them just sort of you know stealing themselves because it feels like they're like, here we go again. Yeah, they look they look very nervous. And around that time in the film, Nathan asks Mr. Holmes, Christian Holmes, whether it's a good idea for Elizabeth to be getting into business again with a romantic partner, given what happened the first time.

3. 36:56

   And his answer is, good question. I trust Billy. Good question. I trust Billy. You know, and implied, of course, is I didn't trust Sonny. My view of those two relationships is that as much as Elizabeth tried to blame it all on Sonny in the trial, you know, the jury obviously didn't buy it. It convicted her. I didn't buy it. But I do think there was a grain of truth there in the sense that Sonny was a terrible influence on Elizabeth Holmes. And I think we see through this film that Billy Evans is a terrible influence on Elizabeth Holmes. He's narcissistic, he's arrogant, he's controlling, he's manipulative. He lied.

4. 37:46

   and uh i feel like the pattern is repeating itself yeah i mean i think you know that scene you describe then billy evans appears even though the dad christian holmes has just said i trust billy and he comes right over to say no more talking right no more talking so like that was a really like i thought that that scene was very powerful um but you know i do both of these guys seem pretty awful yeah but i do feel like as with everything around elizabeth holmes we have to come back to like what's going on inside of her like what what what is this because not only is she having these relationships with these kind of men but she's also um she's also using this like intense like um eye-catching like desperate extreme bombastic language in both cases like Right. So it's like there's something there that's performative and also some kind of construction, a romantic, an understanding of what romance is like.

5. 38:46

   There's something in here that's very strange on the question of like, why, you know, put it this way. You know, I don't know how you guys feel about PDA, but seeing people like walk down the street and they're making out or they're talking in a loud, loving way. These things don't bother me particularly. but like having a friend say like he is my everything like that would like take let's you know let's go to a psychologist from here you know what i mean like it's like it's and she's doing all of that and so this question of like what does she think her romantic relationships are because we see her in this movie repeatedly show us that what she thinks this is is perfect you know perfect parody they're aligned and synced they're two twin souls they're dolphins you know leaping out of the water towards each other.

6. 39:31

   It's like, it's very bizarre. And that's what the text with Sonny Balwani revealed. Yes. A similar thing. Like, what's that about? She calls their love a monument to love over and over, right? They're building monuments to love. To love. Every day. Every day. For each other. Every day. You know, I think all that being said, yes, it's bizarre and it's grandiose and it's cartoonishly romantic. but I do think probably the most genuine thing in the movie is their love. I actually do think they love each other. And I also think that Elizabeth and Sonny were in love.

7. 40:11

   It does, I think, help explain a little bit why she was so willing to bring Nathan Fielder in to live with her for 30 days before she went to jail, which is to say, like, she really clearly has she's a she commits full on to basically everything she does. And I don't know whether that's about reassuring herself or about, you know, sort of faking it till you make it. But if you're going to commit to your relationship to that extent, if you're going to commit to your lies to that extent, you're going to commit to your fraud and your business. Why not commit to inviting this weird Canadian comedian to make a documentary about you at one of the most intimate moments of your entire life? And the irony being like it's all about transparency and you can see everything is literally the title and billy is then the one cutting off access like left and