TRIGGERnometry · 4 min · Oct 21, 2026

Tony Smith says border reform needs legal drafters

Smith says operational plans need specialist lawyers and drafters to map risks through Parliament and the courts. He says reform takes time and requires committed political backing.

Tony Smith CBE is a former senior UK border official.

Led UK Border Force and the London 2012 border operation; advises governments and industry on border management.

Konstantin Kisin, Host
Francis Foster, Host

About this segment

Smith says operational plans need specialist lawyers and drafters to map risks through Parliament and the courts. He says reform takes time and requires committed political backing.

From “"I Policed the Border for 40 Years - the System is Broken" - Tony Smith CBE”, Oct 21, 2026. Watch the full episode

“the real first thing you've got to do is you've got to find someone that's going to write that law for you.”

Tony Smith CBEat 1:06:00 · TRIGGERnometry1:06:00

Takeaways

Smith says he could advise on operations, but not draft legislation.
He calls for legal drafters to assess clauses and likely challenges.
He says reform takes time and needs political support.

In this episode

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Transcript

Transcribed by machine (Whisper) from the episode’s audio, so a word may be off here and there.

1:04:18
He knows I'd get it sorted. And I appointed you and I said, Tony, you're my man. We need to, this legal framework, this legal system, it doesn't work. People are coming here. To put it, not to find a point on it, they're taking the piss. We all know they are. It needs urgent reform. From beginning to end, how long do you see that process taking and what are going to be the challenges involved in it?
1:04:43
Depends what sort of a majority you've got. And if you've got the backing of your, you know, you've got enough people in the House of Commons to actually talk like you are. Yeah. Whether I take the job or not, depending on whether I believe you or not, because a lot of politicians have offered a lot of people jobs on the promise that things, this, that, and people I know who have become casualties because it become all their fault and wasn't a politician's fault.
1:05:07
So I think you need that real trust between your political masters. Now you can trust me. Oh, yeah? Come on. No comment. You do need that trust. But the answer is you can't just rely on me. I need to bring in a bunch of my mates who have got skills I don't have, particularly really, really good lawyers, really, really good legal draftsmen, people who can actually make this stick, because I don't want to write a law for you, and then it gets boshed in the house of lawyers because there's a procedural impropriety.
1:05:47
There are people out there that I could point you in the right direction of who would be supportive. And there's a number of reports and a policy exchange from others that I've participated in. But you need not just me. You need a team around you that can actually deliver what you want. So I could deliver what you want operationally, but I would say to you the real first thing you've got to do is you've got to find someone that's going to write that law for you.
1:06:08
I can point you in the right direction. I can't write laws. I'm not a lawyer. You need someone that's going to write that law for you and give you all the risk assessments, all the red, amber, greens on every clause in that law about how you're going to get that through Parliament, how you're going to get it through the courts, and what you're going to face along the way, which becomes a project, really, a project plan.
1:06:24
How long would that take? That's not going to happen overnight. So you can't do this overnight. you get politics oh well you know within the first 10 days 100 days or whatever mate it don't work like that well you've got to do that you've got to you've got to accept i'm afraid that even if you're in power right now and that's what you want to happen it ain't going to happen overnight and i will tell you that before you give me the job and then you get someone else in there tell you all right i'm doing i mean that's what president trump does i mean i know guys that have been casual as it is over there over there who said well actually you know mr president you can't you can't do that and he's fired and then someone else is brought in and then you get a yes man in there who actually don't deliver anyway and that's even worse so i think you need a reality
1:07:05
check you know if you're going to be the prime minister about what is and isn't achievable and then you need to surround yourself with a team of people that are absolutely committed to your cause and and that's why i'm a little bit nervous about civil service actually in this country you know i like the old north cotrevellian idea that we've got an impartial civil service but i don't think we have though over in the states if you get above a certain level you have to go political you have to become a politically appointee so you i am then wedded to what you want to do politically i'm aligned to what you want to do i'm not an impartial advisor anymore and i think you need that at the top of some of these organizations particularly in the home office so that i would stand or fall with you if you if you got you know elected out then we'd all get
1:07:43
booted out with you that's the way it works in america because that's the way you've got to get that trust built between yourself and your senior officials to say look we're all pulling on the same end of the rope here because there is a bit of yes minister out there definitely The US Minister was a great programme. I don't know if you've ever watched it, but it's a fantastic programme and I've seen that happen in reality.