Trump-Xi Summit, Benioff: "Not My First SaaSpocalypse," OpenAI vs Apple, Multi-Sensory AI, El Niño

of state of conflict. And the question is, can the US and China avoid conflict and find a path to cooperation, which has happened a few times in history when we found ourselves in this moment, but doesn't often happen. And I think the way to kind of think about the opportunity is if you're in a resource expansive world, where you're increasing productivity and increasing production globally at an accelerating pace, perhaps there's less of a reason to have conflict. Perhaps there's a way that both societies, both countries can increase the quality of life for their people without taking it away from the other side. And in a world where you're more resource constrained or resource static, that becomes less possible. You have to fight and grab land and grab territory and grab resources from the other side. And it seems like in this moment when we are seeing these extraordinary technology shifts unlocked by AI and automation and biotech and all of these kind of moments of what could be true abundance ahead of us, it seems like the perfect moment to say, hey, maybe the world can be more multipolar, doesn't need to be unipolar, doesn't need to be bipolar, but everyone can participate in the expansion of the pie. And I think that that's kind

of the idealistic way to look at the opportunity in front of the administration and Chinese leadership right now, is there a way to kind of look at the next 30 years and ask the question, how do we all share proportionally in growing the pie and not find ourselves in a moment of conflict where you assume the pie is static? That's, I think, hopefully the message that comes out of this. From an administration political perspective, it just seems like this is going to be a major coup for the president if he can walk away with a series of trade deals with China that increase job security, increase prosperity, increase income levels, increase investment in America and American jobs, it would be a huge win. And I think that's the tactical stuff that people will be truly looking for. And I think the big strategic question, which I care most about, which is avoiding conflict, is there a way we can chart an economic and cooperative path that doesn't involve eating each other and involves sharing in a bigger pie?

Tramath, why is Trump bringing all of these CEOs with him? And what does success look like coming out of this meeting? I think that you find a resolution and a path forward with China through economic cooperation. It's the largest consumer economy in the world. It's still largely closed off. And so I think what this is was about bringing some amount of financial firepower with them so that they could start to penetrate that market. Planes, cars, chips, you know, very much hard equipment type stuff. I've said this before, But I think the Chinese are very much a top-down Confucian societal philosophy, whereas Americans are much more bottoms-up, kind of an individualist construction.

The fact that we're so different actually gives us a lot of room to find cooperation and not find conflict. And I think at the center of that is economic cooperation. I had a friend call me this morning, a very prominent Democrat. at. And, you know, he was the one that called out the media, which I was surprised by. And he said, you know, the media gets it all wrong, because they're talking about why is he bringing these CEOs. And instead, the reality is that the simplest and surest path to no conflict detente with China is economic entanglement. And it has to be bi directional, because really, for so many years, it's been one way where they're sending us the cheap goods that they wanted. So I think strategically it's good. And I think, you know, I'll just take a slightly different take on what Freebrook said. I think behind closed doors, they're probably just figuring out how to divide the pie. Unpack that for a second. Divide which pie? The globe, the economy, the Western hemisphere versus the Pacific? China still needs a lot of energy. They also need a lot of critical technologies that America provides. And so I think that there is a trade there. And the quid pro quo is there are certain regions of the world where we want them to de-escalate their participation in

Central South America being probably the most important. And then the second is probably in the Middle East. And then maybe the third is just to find some reasonable view of the Asia-Pac region together. And I think there's a trade there to be done. And in that you kind of start to carve up the world into a pretty easily identifiable bipolar. construction they also uh mark need customers uh to buy their goods and we've had a bit of a uh mixed signals there tariffs obviously last year sticking it to china in a pretty hard way the decoupling after covid hey we need to be independent energy ppe drugs chips from china Now, we're kind of saying, hey, let's come to the table and build connective tissue.

So sort that out for us on a business level. Should the two countries be deeply entwined? And then how do we manage having too much dependency on China? Well, you heard it today from President Xi when he said he wants a wider door. And that means that he wants the door of business to open even wider between the two countries. We have our absolute best salespeople there, not just our president, who has to be one of the best salespeople I've ever met, but also we've got Elon, we've got Jensen selling chips. Kelly Ortberg selling planes. Kelly selling planes. He's already sold 200. He wants to sell 500 planes.

Financial services. Brian is selling soybeans. Brian Sykes, the CEO of Cargill. You know, Cargill is the world's largest private company based in Minneapolis, and he is going to come away selling a lot of soybeans. So you go through the list of the CEOs, each one is our best salesperson in this category, and they're going to come back with orders, and it's going to be amazing. And by the way, I think you said it very well, you know, this idea of business is this kind of greatest platform for change. They are working together like never before.

evs and so it is a pretty coopetition i guess it would be the cynical way i want one of those new byd gulf you know uh what do you call those with the doors that flip up going going i want one of those gullwing byds they have some cool cars have you seen those they're cool but they're not safe they're incredible yeah they're talking in this in this they said they're talking about bringing some of those cars to the U.S. That would be incredible. I would hollow out the entire automotive industry here. If we had $20,000, $30,000 cars from China, it would be the end of the U.S. automotive industry overnight. And Tim Cook's there. He has to store all his data there. That's been a pretty controversial issue for him because Friedberg, if anybody has private

information or as a dissident, Tim Cook has to give that data over to the Chinese Communist Party. How do you think this plays in America vis-a-vis the midterms, Friedberg? Americans feel ignored, inflation over 3%, and they look at the Iran war as a betrayal by President Trump, and they look at china as not material to their well-being so when you look at trump being on a six-month timeline for the midterms and he's only got two more years in office after that you got xi who's working off of a hundred year playbook how does that dynamic play out with trump and the midterms and his core constituency maga which is now evolving into america first America only. And this kind of is rubbing that group of people the wrong way.

I think the second and third order effects of anything that comes out of China is what's going to be most consequential to the average voter, which is job security and income security and income growth, and then cost of living impact. The cost of living impact would be if there can be some deflationary effect from a trade deal that makes access to goods lower price for Americans. And then anything that America is exporting, there's increased demand, like there's a follow on effect to the soybean export market. There's a follow on effect, obviously, to the oil export market. There's a follow on effect to, for example, technology and software being exported. So that increases economic productivity in the US and increases job security income. And then the other side of the trade deal is can we get stuff that Americans really care about and make it cheaper? Can people now buy stuff at the store that drops in price by 30-40% where we've kind of tariffed and reduced trade? That increases the price of things. So if those deals kind of get worked out, people will see things get cheaper at the store and they'll feel good about kind of their income security. And I think that could be positive. I think that's

what's ultimately going to make people make the blue-red decision when they go to the polls in November. That's the schizophrenic nature of this, Chamath. We have Americans who very much want cheap goods from China. And then we have last year, all these tariffs being put on and we have this great decoupling. So how do you handicap the midterms, Trump's timeline, and Xi's timeline and what their goals are? And then I guess we'll get to Taiwan after that. I don't know. I think it's a little bit above my pay grade. But what I will say is that the midterms, I think, are probably going to swing more based on these recent gerrymandering rulings from the Supreme Court and what happened in the Virginia Supreme Court and what's going to happen in the state legislatures of these red states and some of these blue states more than what's going to come out of this summit with President Xi.

So let me just put that over here. And I think that money is getting organized. There was an article in the New York Times this week, which really surprised me, but the largest donor in this election cycle is Andreessen Horowitz. Yeah, what is that about? Yeah. I think it's because they're trying to establish themselves as part of the financial firmament of America, which I think strategically as a business makes a lot of sense. Like they're in the AUM business, right? So they can't stop at 100 billion of AUM. They're marching towards a trillion. They're going to be the next Blackstone, which I think is an incredible feat.

And they're building a juggernaut of a business. But I think they also realize that politics is now a permanent part of that if they're going to be investing in higher quantum, more geopolitically influenced parts of the capital cycle and parts of the economy. So I think the midterms are largely that. The money that's going to be raised plus the gerrymandering that will get done and undone over the next few months. Again, I think the Chinese and the Americans have a very strong incentive to kind of divide up the world. I think the future at this point, you have these critical resource inputs. China has a stranglehold. You have energy and intelligence, AI, where America has a stranglehold on one and an effective stranglehold on the other, which is energy. And I think there's a trade there to be done. And as long as you can negotiate what a reasonable give and take is, I think they're just going to find common ground. Does China really need to be in Chile and Venezuela and panama probably not does america have to have an incredibly strong point of view about the strait of malacca probably not and so there's probably a trade to be done so that we can get their rare earths they can get some more oil everybody can be happy and we can all find

abundance yeah the the key issue here is china is and most people are you know china phobic but china has serious systematic issues with population with their real estate with their gdp all of this is in decline. And I think Xi, most of all, is concerned about another Tiananmen Square. If he doesn't get more people working, they've had the largest growth of any middle class in history. They have the largest middle class in the world. I think you were sort of referencing that, Mark, with luxury goods and luxury goods providers are going there. But it's tenuous. And that's the number one, by the way, that is the number one point of focus of President Xi.

President Xi's focus has been getting 500 million people from poverty into the middle class. It's not exactly how we think about the world in the United States. That's the main focus of the political leader. And he's achieved that. That has been an incredible accomplishment. But it's at risk right now because their GDP is falling. They need their factories to operate. They're being undercut by other regions. And then, of course, Taiwan is what they want most of all and supremacy in their part of the world. I'm not convinced of that, actually. OK, say more. I mean, I think we just kind of said it to summarize.

They want to have economic success. They want to continue to grow their middle class. They want to continue to have a healthy economy. They want more trade. I thought it was interesting that they're talking about Trump is talking about not only having the Board of Peace now. he wants a board of trade. That was a discussion we've never heard before today. Then we have Xi saying, I want the wider door. Then we have all these folks there selling their products. Two people we didn't mention, the CEO of Visa and the CEO of MasterCard are on the trip. Now, why is that? Because if you look at commerce in China, it is dominated by companies like Alibaba and And these organizations who use these super apps, it's not really all the way open for a Visa and a MasterCard.

That would be incredible for those executives. So in the same way that we want to sell airplanes, we want to sell chips, NVIDIA, the Qualcomm CEO, Cristiano, is also there. We want to sell soybeans. We want to sell payment services. We want to sell everything. more economic collaboration and cooperation you can get between the two countries, the more peace you're going to have. I think that is the top piece.

standard of living give everyone's economy a boost and you give everyone less reason to fight with each other since you went there with saiyuan should we take our arm sales off of the table friedberg and should we ask china to not sell arms to iran yes, we should ask China to not sell arms to Iran.

Yeah. Okay. I don't know what there is. What is there to talk about there? Well, because I think what she wants is for us to not sell arms to Taiwan. So would you make that trade, I guess, is what I'm saying. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a good question. I think in that context, that's a nuanced one. I don't... That's why I bring it up, because that seems to be... Generally, you're right. Yeah. I mean, generally, that's probably a trade that, you know, that should be kind of disgusting. do the deal so you say make the trade chamath i mean i kind of know we're 18 months from taiwan not being an important moment of conversation the way it is today why 18 months because we are at a point where we're probably one to two nanometers away from being able to do what we need taiwan to strategically do for us and so as we scale up our chip fabs as we get more capacity and interestingly, there are these orthogonal technologies being developed. I don't know if you guys saw, but Neuralink was showcasing now a machine that is literally operating at the almost nanometer scale to do the brain operations for the implantation all automatically. So when you have the dexterity and the capability mechanically to make these things, the real

reason then is a very different one than what it is today. Today, it's economic. And if you take that off the table, I think we'll have a very different attitude to Taiwan. That's number one. Number two, sell the chips. And the reason we should sell the chips is we want NVIDIA to win. We do not want to give enough oxygen for Huawei to then all of a sudden emerge and have a version of a chip that works. And what Mark said is totally right. These models are catching up. They're almost at the same pace. So the more important thing, Jason, is probably we should all agree is just like, let's have a reasonable KYC for how the models get used so that, you know, somebody in a basement doesn't cook up some bioweapon.

Meanwhile, sell the chips. Proliferate. Let Jensen win. I'd rather he win than Huawei win. Mark, I'm going to give you the last word, but I'm going to force you to answer a hard question. China sets up a blockade around Taiwan and they decide they're taking it. Should the U.S. defend it? Yes or no? I've said this for years. I don't agree with Neil Ferguson on that point. I think that this is a nonsense issue. I think China and Taiwan will reconcile. I think that, well, first of all, I do want to schedule, though, Chamath for that Neuralink. next tuesday at five o'clock we can drill your brain chamoff can i get you in what are you trying to put some empathy into chamoff i talked to elon he said it doesn't give me just drill right in there's a and boom and then well you can get hooked up it is the craziest thing i know i got you scheduled at five o'clock on tuesday hold your hand if you're too nervous yeah and by the way Empathy, if I only had a heart.

Literally, like, if I only had a Wizard of Oz. We want a more connected Chamath. It's going to make for an even better show. It would be incredible. Yes, and I would laugh and I would giggle. We could get into show tunes here. Free break, I know you're, yeah, big on the show tunes. If I only had a heart. If I only had a brain. A heart, a brain, and what's the third one? If I only had a Neuralink. you gotta give you courage Friedberg okay move on alright let's move on here by the way I took Chimov's kids Chimov stayed home I took his kids to the Wizard of Oz at the sphere it was incredible if you haven't seen it yeah Chimov was like oh do something enriching with my kids or hit the craps table no I'll be honest with you I get a little freaked out in large like groups of people venues yeah I get I get no just just like when there's a lot of people I get very nervous yeah is this because of your newfound celebrity is this is that the issue It's just always been this way.

No, I don't even want to go there. I just have these bad thoughts of like, oh my God, what if something happens? How do we get out and like- Oh, terrorist attack. How do you get out to the exit? Panic disorder. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. You have panic disorder. Panic disorder. Yeah, I don't like these large spaces with lots of people. I get a little whinged out. Anyway, your kids had a great time. Great show. Tony Robbins lives very near you, Shamath. Don't you think we can get that to happen? Yeah, let's get Tony Robbins in there to clear that blockage. You're a Tony Robbins guy, Mark. Why are you so into Tony Robbins?

I love Tony Robbins. I had him at my conference this week. It was incredible, actually. He did an incredible presentation for an hour. Did he unlock for you your success? He claims to, that he has you on the roster of $50,000 a year CEOs. I am the number one fan of Tony Robbins. What percentage of your success is attributed to Tony's mentorship? Hey, if it wasn't for Tony Robbins, I don't think there would be a Salesforce. force. So there you go. Actually, no, no jokes aside. Can you tell us like what like what like what were those big kind of blockages and how did you how did he help you or how did you work through? Just focusing on, hey, the questions, you know, the quality of your questions is the quality of your life. It's that insight. And just are you asking yourself the right questions? What do you want? What's important to you? How are you getting it? What is preventing you from having it?

How will you know that you have it? Just no one had ever said that to me. And then it was just like clear to me wait i need to write that down like what do i really want right now what is my point of focus and that is what gave me motivation as soon as i got that clarity i mean a lot of us do it automatically but that's not where i was when i was a kid that's for sure did you run across the coals did you do any of that kind of stuff many times really yeah of course okay there it is folks hey we can go together uh absolutely we had tony on the show i tried to get in there and understand his psychology but he just had us do breathing exercises all right the uh all in summit is happening again fifth year in a row wow we've been doing this for a while all in.com slash events september 13th 14th and 15th we'll have you back mark in year six but when you score so highly on a keynote we give you two years off so that we can build up the anticipation so coming in 2027 our guy mark banning off but for this year uh allin.com slash events okay topic two ai's impact by the way real quick can i can i just do a quick psa a public service announcement coming public service announcement yes nick just pull up this link this dog named scooter needs a home

promise my wife i'd do this don't get don't get mad at me this dog named scooter needs a home he's in baldwin park dog's about to die lives in baldwin park at the animal care and control They're overwhelmed in LA. There are so many homeless street dogs that are being collected. They're all being put to sleep. Someone give this dog a home. Gorgeous dog. His name is Scooter. Link will be on the YouTube channel. Thank you very much. Are you getting a little emotional, Freeper, about this dog being put down? I just don't like these, you know, all these street dogs. They didn't choose that situation they were in, and then they all end up kind of getting pulled in by animal care and control, and then they all get put to sleep.

Kind of sucks. You're a dog guy. Come on. You got to have a heart. No, I have a big heart. come on it's ten thousand dollars to keep these dogs alive for another week can we count on you for that donation any purebred white golden retrievers in that bunch no they're just months just months we have a cat that we got at the shelter actually kind of a story walked into the shelter learning so looking for a cat all of a sudden we're in the shelter this cat's like coming out you know my kids and all of a sudden they're okay we'll take this cat what is this cat's name this cat's name is cloud that's our cat wow absolutely we have cloud the cat all right that's awesome all right ai's impact on software rippling through the market mark you're on the front lines here thank you for reminding me yeah well i mean in pain and suffering are lessons right i think the buddha and tony robbins both taught us that and the only way to the other side is through, as you know, Mark. So Salesforce down a whopping 37% 90 billion losses for you service now 42% workday 45% 180 billion in market caps been lost and the assumption mark is that AI is going to make it unnecessary for you to use slack or Salesforce or HubSpot whatever it happens to be that you'll just ask your AI to solve this for

you and we'll all look at a piece of glass and have no actual software the AI will just tell us what to do. What's your response to the fear, the criticism, and how are you managing this massive change internally? You're right. It's the Saspocalypse. I mean, it's not my first Saspocalypse, honestly, but it's the current Saspocalypse. So we are all now drinking at Salesforce Sperillas. And we actually have a pet Sasquatch as well. Yeah. We're all a little more sassy. That's what I would say. That's number one. You bring the sass to sass? We've got to bring the sassy you know and then you've always been a sassy man yeah and then number two is look the market is re-rated it's not a mystery everybody knows you know you guys have been talking about it for a while i've been living it so the market software markets re-rated it happens every now and then there are cycles you know i've been doing salesforce for 27 years enterprise software for 40 and the market's re-rated so you mentioned hubspot they're trading at two times sales I've never seen that before.

They just had a great quarter. We saw a lot of great quarters. I looked at the top 10 major enterprise software companies. They all had great quarters, and they're all trading in two-time sales. So why? Because of everything you just said, there's like a hypnosis around AI, and we haven't seen it show up in the numbers yet. If it shows up in the numbers, maybe people will be right. Right now, all we know is there's still a lot of enterprise software being sold in the world. So you've been through this. It's not your first time. This is not my first Saspocalypse. I mean, I remember the Saspocalypse of 2020 when COVID happened and all of it, you know, everything collapsed.

There was the great Saspocalypse. What's your strategy? 2016. What's that? In all sincerity, what's your strategy and how do you deal with, you know, your internal team? Obviously, they are compensated through, you know, stock and this is headwind and you have competition for employees from OpenAI, Anthropic and SpaceX. So how do you deal with rallying the troops and then how do you develop a strategy? Well, you're right. I mean, it's a lot easier to be a private company right now where you don't have to be rationalized by the public markets. If you're in the public markets and you get re-rated, that's the reality of being in the public markets.

And I think that for what I tell my employees, what I just told my employees is, look, you can't get drunk on the stock price. If you are focused on today all the time, and that is how you're getting your emotional state, it's not going to work for you. You have to find a different anchor. So I try not to pay really a lot of attention to it. I'm focused on my customer success, ours, our revenue. Look, we'll do over $46 billion this year, more than $16 billion in cash flow. We have more than 83,000 employees. these are the things that I'm focused on. What is the level of customer success that we're delivering? That's a really important, I can't control the stock price. There's nothing I can do.

And for our employees, they can't control it either. They need to believe in the company and the quality of the success they're delivering to customers in the long term. And then you look at the market, you look at these other companies, not just us, they're doing great. And I mean, I saw some great numbers, but it doesn't really matter. The market's re-rated. Well, you've got all that free cash flow. You've been great at acquisition, so I'm sure you're... I've bought some great companies, by the way. Everything's a little cheaper. I like that. Yeah. Chamath, what's your take on this? You've been pretty critical of the SaaS space in previous

Was it controversial, Mark, to make Slack headless? Was that a big decision or was that a was everybody kind of mostly on board with that? Well, we were the first to, you know, the way that our platform is architected and Shamath, you know it so well because you're coding, you're coding agents and the company you're building can run right on top of it and build awesome stuff also. So, you know, number one is we were the first with an XML API, a SOAP API, a REST API, now a CLA API, MCP API. We always wanted to have a platform that had every API possible. And our apps are not hard-coded where we had to cut the top off of them. They've always been embedded inside our platform. So now we can stream our apps out through a new API called AXL, and I can manifest it into any large language model or device or anything. And it just works better, actually. I think that, you know, when Jack Dorsey wrote that memo, J. Kyle, and part of what he said is he's going to try to run his company by building a world model. My initial thought was, well, where is the context, Mark, what you said before? Where's the semantic understanding to create a world model? And a lot of it for a lot

companies actually in slack it's in slack and email yeah those two places i showed you that slackbot jason i mean the thing is because you run your company on slack all your dms all your channels we're reading that now through the ai and we can tell you more about your business than you know because slackbot is reading stuff that you know nobody knew what was happening and like i'm using that myself but i can then connect it into other things so i have the ability to go into Salesforce and Google and everything. And so when I'm on Slack bot, I can ask it any question about my company. What are my top five deals? What do, what are my employees upset about? What are the top three things I need to focus on? And then boom, I get the information because it has the data.

I think you should really look at making Slack more open and cheaper and getting more of that context because there are limitations in terms of getting your data out based on like which plan you're on it's just too convoluted but once i upgraded to a higher plan and you know it's whatever 6 12 18k for our small company i was able to get more and more context to my Oh OpenClaw, Plexity Computer, and Clawed, and we're testing all of those. And today, I wrote, literally before I got on the show, a new prompt that is, every two hours in our Slack, tell me what decisions are being made, who's making those decisions, and what you would handicap those decisions if you were my chief of staff, if you were a CEO, or if you were a board member, and I created personas to now evaluate decision making going on.

Just I have to show you the new version of Slack. You're going to love it, Jason. And, you know, that OpenAI and Anthropik and every AI company is standardized on Slack. Yes. And by the way, and our core sales cloud and service clouds as well. So I got to show you what we're doing. It's so cool and so fun.

OpenAI, in a breaking news story, is considering suing Apple over their ChatGPT partnership. As we all know, two years ago, Apple and OpenAI announced ChatGPT would integrate into Siri, iOS, macOS. but according to bloomberg the deal has gone so poorly for open ai that they might sue apple for breach of contract here are open ai's gripes apple chat gpt integration within siri requires users to specifically say chat gpt to get results we probably all experience this if we haven't given up on siri which is the world personal assistant ever created. Apple hasn't. It's disgraziad to this level.

Disgraziad with this product. How do you get there first and you remain worst? Apple hasn't promoted the integration at all. And users are still overwhelmingly going to the standalone chat, GPT app or others. OpenAI expected billions of subscription revenue from the deal, and it hasn't come to fruition. According to Bloomberg, Apple's side of the story is, hey, they have concerns about OpenAI's privacy practices. Maybe they don't trust the guy in charge over there, which was a reoccurring theme in the lawsuit. And they're annoyed that OpenAI, and here is the palace entry, they're upset that OpenAI is building hardware to compete with apple and that they recruited their design guru johnny ive mark benioff you know the players what is going on here yeah and you gotta trust sam altman and open ai i love him but let's just upscale this conversation just one second listen what has happened what happened is we have these llms they're starting to come out come out every company's kind of chosen a slightly different path you had elon he went out he had grok and he kind of started building these companions and sex bots and all this kind of stuff going on and that was a huge focus of his the sex bot focus then you kind of had open ai and they're doing the sora video thing

and they're also doing ad networks and crazy stuff like that then you had gemini and they have the nano banana and then finally you've got anthropos and they go we don't know about those sex bots and we don't know about nano banana, but we're going to do coding agents. And it turned out Anthropica was right. And all of a sudden the rocket ship took off. And now everybody's like, whoa, where did Anthropica? Oh, whoa, they're way up there. And then they're all like, we're only going to do coding agents too. And now they're all resetting and going to hit either buttons and going coding agents, everybody focus, focus, kill Sarah, kill this, get rid of that sex bots off, you know, cursor on yeah and that's where we are right now and so everybody look this is what's cool about right now is that everybody it's such a dynamic moment in our industry it's so exciting that people have to pivot and you have to be ready to focus and refocus and constantly ask the question like what do you want right now and everyone is changing what they really want and if you looked at where everybody was a year ago and where they are now, they're in a totally different place because we all know that when Anthropic 4.6 hit, boom, everyone could code in their companies.

And before that, they really couldn't. It was a little bit of a productivity improvement, but not as much as we wanted. Now everybody sees this and goes, wow, this is unbelievable. We're even working on technology inside Slack to make it easier for everybody to code. so i think it's going to be really breaking news breaking news there you're going to see some cool stuff with slack and code i'm not ready to talk about it yet but there's no question that uh we are at a new moment in coding i mean chamas got a whole company around it a lot of people have companies around it there's going to be before coding was all about humans and like that's where i started i was 15 years old burlingame high school on hands-on keyboard writing video games you know basic 68 000 6502 you know no no now it's like everyone changed your org is it the product manager the developer or the ux designer it's all now the creator or did it all blend into one blend it together who wins who wins it's all blended together and by the way to mark's point hands-on keyboard thing you know most of our engineers just speak they so it's like and so one of our guys just has a foot-button-operated thing.

And it's just like... Oh, I have that too. Whisper flow plus pedal. It's all talking. Pedal plus whisper flow and talking. There is no cans on keyboard anymore. All right, so let's get back to this story here. We're going for dolphin flow at Salesforce. Dolphins on keyboards. Mahalo for you, oh-halo. Freebird, two questions. One, now that Sam has shut down the sex spots, how are you filling that void? And then number two, what's your take on the strained relationship here between OpenAI and the world, and specifically the Apple world?

on this I think the thing that you're assuming is that these form factors don't need to change and I just wonder like don't we have an iPhone moment that we're just all going to be surprised by where somebody shows up and they're like this thing and you're like oh my god that's the thing Do you know what I mean?

Like, there's enough ingredients here where somebody's going to cook something up. And then you have to think about, Jason, the sunk cost of like, you know, look, Apple is incredible. But that's the product of 40 years, 30 years of meticulous process optimization. What do you do if the form factor is totally different and the nature of the device is different? How do you pivot that organization? You're hitting on something very important

some water i don't need all the water yeah okay all right listen we uh have two final topics here we can talk about anthropic unrolling the dark spvs and the impact that has on the market or we can go to everybody's favorite science corner we'll do both just do a quick uh around the around the neighborhood yeah okay lightning round on uh we'll do spvs last Friedberg, what do you got in Science Corner?

Everybody, all the Friedberg fans are just distraught when we skip it. So let's give him a good one. Mark, do you like Science Corner? No, you do. I do. Come on. Only if it's about the oceans. Mark is the greatest salesman in Silicon Valley. He loves it all and he wants to hear more. Mark, how did you learn sales? How do we become half as good as you? I'm not a good salesman. I'm a geek. You are. But you know how to like... I'm not at a Tony Robbins seminar. Let's go. Okay. Walk over the coals together. Let's roll. We're all going to Tony. Put out the coals. We're walking across him. Nick, let's pull up the first chart.

So we're seeing the actual places you can grow certain crops, independent of genetic modification, is expanding. In other words, farmland's expanding because of global warming. Right. So we increasingly grow soybeans in Canada. That was not the case two decades ago. Through both plant breeding, where we've made the genetics adapt, but also the warmer temperature, the shorter winters and whatnot. They've been able to grow that crop further north. But if you guys go back a couple of years, there were major heat waves and droughts in Australia.

Huge fires, yeah. Huge fires. But remember that wheat goes to Indonesia, it goes to Vietnam, it goes to these countries with hundreds of millions of people dependent on it. And then they got to go scramble and find it elsewhere. Now, on a global basis, there's always a bit of a give and a take. But in a year like this, when you have this much energy pumped into the atmosphere, you may not have the give and the take. And that's where things start to buckle. All right. So yeah, it's just like an early warning sign. I know I've given food warnings, food crisis warnings twice before on the show. You gave a really good one for Ukraine four years ago. And it turned out that that warning resulted in a negotiation to allow wheat to flow out of Ukraine that Russia, Ukraine, and other folks made a specific carve-out in their war to make sure that famine didn't spread.

Yeah, and the fertilizer export was negotiated at the start of the war as well, which was critical for sure. But at this point- I think you played a role in raising awareness for that, so I'll give you credit there, Freeberg. Mark, thanks for coming on the program. Sorry that at the end of the program, we all want to commit seppuku here, but we have Dr. Doom and he always loves to end the show. There he is. Coming from Marvel in December. Do you want to wrap with an upbeat Anthropic story or something? Avengers Doomsday starring David Friedberg coming to the Marvel franchise in December. Yes, you thought Robert Downey Jr. was playing him.

It's actually Friedberg. Here's your meme. It's not Mark Benioff's first time here in the Sasspocalypse. Oh, no. There it is. First time. Oh, come on. he's like i've been doing this before boys i'm buying my stock back somebody cut that rope yeah absolutely all right listen uh i'll just lightning around this one anthropic has had enough of the shenanigans of the multi-tiered multi-layered spvs being sold to dentists for 10 percent load-in fees i think we all knew this day was coming since it's becoming the wild west they called out specific platforms and they said we're going to Gaetham Chamath, Tempest in a teapot, or long overdue punishment for bad actors?

Love. Mark said it right. All these companies should go public and get a valuation and focus on the higher order bit. And all of these ticky tacky mechanisms that people can use to stay private longer need to get a bullet put in its head. And these SPVs are the worst, the layered spvs on spvs on spvs by the way i and i will guarantee you this once spacex goes public once anthropic goes public once open ai goes public you're going to see a litany of these lawsuits back and forth between the purveyors of these spvs they should not be allowed they should be all negated if possible you can't now you can't unbreak the egg so i guess you just have to call it what it is i hope every company adopts this and i hope as a result these companies go public sooner and they rationalize their equity structure faster i think it's the right thing to do so i like the fact that anthropic just say it's not dyskratia well it's not dyskratia i just i just think that you are going to have a lot of no well you're going to have a lot of people that are going to be very upset once the spacex thing comes up because inevitably because it happened in uber somebody gets screwed in a layered spv somewhere that they didn't know and they're going

going to be like, what happened? Read the fine print. You're getting double carry and you paid 10% on the load in fee and you paid a price 10% over what the last round was. So it's a recipe for disaster. The fine recipe for disaster. Recipe for disaster. Hey, Mark, great job. Thanks so much for coming on the program. Yeah, come back anytime. You were great. Hey, we have a fan question here. This is a fan question that came in written by your PR department. They want to You know, when you do your charity work or your innovation as a founder, are you more, you know, at this stage in your career, you're known for both of these things.

Are you more Steve Jobs or more Lorraine Powell right now? What is your PR department work very, very deeply on that question? The best decision I ever made, the best. When I started Salesforce, we put 1% of our equity, 1% of our profit and 1% of all of our employees' time into a foundation. today we've done more than 10 million hours of volunteerism we've given away more than a billion dollars in grants and we run over 50 000 non-profits for free on our platform that's just salesforce every i every company should do this it's amazing pledge one percent dot org that's my advertisement for the show everybody should jump on the one one one platform best decision i ever made 27 years ago irrespective of i've obviously done a huge amount of personal philanthropy to five hospitals you just did one really things you did one that was really i think personal uh susan wojeki tragically died of cancer and you're gonna get me crying let's not go there this is not you're talking about my best friend bestie my bestie she was a special person huh she's a star the best she was the best just i mean i'm not kidding you're i'm not kidding tell the audience what was so unique about susan tell them what you're it's a good time to do a

remembrance. She, this was one of the great people on the planet, incredible woman, mother of five amazing children, and two amazing sisters, great family. Everybody knows Ann, her sister, her sister Janet at UCSF. Sorry, my eyes are tearing up, but I'll just tell you that, you know, she contracted a very rare form of cancer, passed away too young, a couple years ago now. And she was on our board. She was one of the great people of all time. I'm so grateful that her family is focusing on building a new foundation to go after this rare cancer. We're backing it. I think everybody should. Look, everyone should try to be a Susan. She was one of the absolute greats. And I have an altar in my office. When you come to see me, you'll see what the photos of her and me. And I think about her every single day. And my heart just stays with her, her husband, Dennis, all the children, the sisters, the whole Wachicki family, amazing. And one of the great institutions in Silicon Valley. We're lucky to have the whole family. Yeah. She was fantastic. All right. Well said. Rest in peace. Susan Wachicki. Thank you. All right. We'll see you all next time on the Love you, boys.

All the podcast. Love you, boys. See you, guys. Aloha. Thanks for coming.